As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get
dealt with in exact time frames.
It did. If it failed, long distance phone calls would not work.
I wonder about that. A lot of telephony providers are using VoIP nowadays, and several of the common VoIP/telephony engines (e.g. Asterisk, Kamailio) are open-source and run on Linux. And not even specially-tuned “real-time”
Linux systems, at that -- they are available as standard packages under Debian and derivatives, for example.
All this works fine for long-distance calls, local calls, value-add
services like IVR, voice mail etc. Even video calling, if you want.
Asterisk PBX software on Linux works ... because it is packet switching software, not circuit switching.
VoIP over intercontinental distances has some issues, especially with
cheap providers.
My "4 guys in a garage" company for years was selling a gateway that
bridged T1 or synchronous serial RS422 over the Internet ... or at least
over TCP/IP networks. I learned a lot about managing delay and jitter
while working on that product.
On 2025-08-11 13:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
As soon as you are running real time shit under a multitasking system
even giving high priority to real time tasks cannot guarantee they get >>>> dealt with in exact time frames.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:56:49 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
It did. If it failed, long distance phone calls would not work.
On 2025-08-12, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
I wonder about that. A lot of telephony providers are using VoIP nowadays, >> and several of the common VoIP/telephony engines (e.g. Asterisk, Kamailio) >> are open-source and run on Linux. And not even specially-tuned “real-time”
Linux systems, at that -- they are available as standard packages under
Debian and derivatives, for example.
All this works fine for long-distance calls, local calls, value-add
services like IVR, voice mail etc. Even video calling, if you want.
Asterisk PBX software on Linux works ... because it is packet switching software, not circuit switching. It may work less well in a deskset,
driving the signal chain microphone->A/D converter->packetizer and its counterpart on the receiving end.
VoIP over intercontinental distances has some issues, especially with
cheap providers. Lossy circuits have dropouts, or if they try too hard
to cover themup with retransmissions, they gradually build up delays
that get long enough to interfere with dialogue flow.
My "4 guys in a garage" company for years was selling a gateway that
bridged T1 or synchronous serial RS422 over the Internet ... or at least
over TCP/IP networks. I learned a lot about managing delay and jitter
while working on that product. Like our radio products, it ran our own
RTOS in order to be close enough to the hardware to know the worst case interrupt latency by counting instructions in the interrupt dispatcher.
If your interrupt latency is longer, you have to put more processing
into an ASIC or FPGA.
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephoneAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400.
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got stuff
through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had theirAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400.
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got stuff
through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had theirAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people had
non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I was
fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge batteries and a diesel generator.
It is a distributed network of towers with small batteries that die
after a few hours.
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400.
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got stuff
through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had theirAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the
telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or
his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people had
non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I was
fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge batteries and
a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
It is a distributed network of towers with small batteries that die
after a few hours.
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400.
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got stuff
through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had theirAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the
telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or
his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I was
fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge batteries and
a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems,
that worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400.
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got
stuff through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the
telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or >>>>>> his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I was
fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge batteries
and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much subsidy- chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
On 2025-08-13 18:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems,
that worked. VoIP systems are not.
We had the same arguments when IP / email was challenging X25/X400. >>>>>>
X protocols guaranteed delivery in a day or two. IP mostly got
stuff through instantaneously. But no guarantees.
I never had any delay issues with Voip even over a modem link
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the >>>>>>> telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies
or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy- chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
LOL. There are no subsidies.
Even by EU standards, Spain is pretty fucking corrupt.
Bless!
https://etn.global/news-and-events/spain-cuts-renewables-subsidies/
Spain Cuts Renewables Subsidies
"The Spanish government has decided to suspend all subsidies for
renewable energy projects, with immediate effect, meaning it will no
longer provide subsidies for *new*
wind, solar, co-generation or waste incineration projects."
Implying that old wind solar etc *are* still subsidised.
"n Spain, there are IBI rebates (Impuesto sobre Bienes Inmuebles -
property tax) and IRPF rebates (Impuesto sobre la Renta de las Personas >Físicas - income tax) for the installation of solar panels."
Spain and Spanish consumers drain millions from EU funds to put in
pointless windmills and solar panels.
It remains the only nation in the EU to claim renewable subsidies for >generating solar power in the middle of the night.
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure,
the telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone
emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy-
chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2025 12:45:26 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own
power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
That’s gone. Here in NZ (and no doubt other countries) the entire copper network is going away.
On 2025-08-13 21:30, Marc Haber wrote:
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
We want to, but France doesn't.
We would compete with their nuclear, so they protect it :-D
Asterisk PBX software on Linux works ... because it is packet switching
software, not circuit switching.
It does circuit-switching too, if you want. It has drivers available for old-style analog copper lines (both FXO and FXS ends) and ISDN
connections, for those customers who still need that sort of thing. It’s not all VoIP, yet.
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
On 2025-08-13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure,
the telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone
emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy-
chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
Whatever you are using as a source of information belongs in a round
file.
What caused the blackout was a sucession of problems in handling less-than-desirable conditions. This could have happened with *any*
kind of power source.
And, besides what might be the initial condition at an Iberdrola solar
power plant, there were also flaws at non-renewable (including nuclear) plants that played a role in creating the blackout.
Cut the crap of the "subsidy-chasing", that's quite visibly far-right misinformation. Renewables turn a profit by themselves, and that's why they're so present, at least in countries that didn't push back against
that based on political bias. (One might call these "first world
countries".)
On 2025-08-13 21:30, Marc Haber wrote:
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
We want to, but France doesn't.
We would compete with their nuclear, so they protect it :-D
On 2025-08-13, Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own
power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
The terminals (desk telephones) did not have their own power, but were >powered over the telephone lines (48V, ca 50 mA) from the central
switching offices. Government regulations required them to have
batteries that could keep everything running for 3 days and diesel
backup generators to work beyond that.
As traffic swictched to cellphones, there were for a long time no such >quality standards enforced. Because if the cellphones did not work, we
still had the POTS network to fall back on. And now ATT is asking
permission in several states to completely turn off the wireline
service.
On 2025-08-13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure,
the telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone
emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy-
chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
Whatever you are using as a source of information belongs in a round
file.
What caused the blackout was a sucession of problems in handling less-than-desirable conditions. This could have happened with *any*
kind of power source.
And, besides what might be the initial condition at an Iberdrola solar
power plant, there were also flaws at non-renewable (including nuclear) plants that played a role in creating the blackout.
Cut the crap of the "subsidy-chasing", that's quite visibly far-right misinformation. Renewables turn a profit by themselves, and that's why they're so present, at least in countries that didn't push back against
that based on political bias. (One might call these "first world
countries".)
"Carlos E. R." <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 2025-08-13 21:30, Marc Haber wrote:
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
We want to, but France doesn't.
We would compete with their nuclear, so they protect it :-D
That's bad for all Europe.
On 2025-08-13, Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own
power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
The terminals (desk telephones) did not have their own power, but were powered over the telephone lines (48V, ca 50 mA) from the central
switching offices.
Government regulations required them to have
batteries that could keep everything running for 3 days and diesel
backup generators to work beyond that.
As traffic swictched to cellphones, there were for a long time no such quality standards enforced. Because if the cellphones did not work, we
still had the POTS network to fall back on. And now ATT is asking
permission in several states to completely turn off the wireline
service.
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
Bless!
https://etn.global/news-and-events/spain-cuts-renewables-subsidies/
Spain Cuts Renewables Subsidies
"The Spanish government has decided to suspend all subsidies for
renewable energy projects, with immediate effect, meaning it will no
longer provide subsidies for *new*
wind, solar, co-generation or waste incineration projects."
Implying that old wind solar etc *are* still subsidised.
"n Spain, there are IBI rebates (Impuesto sobre Bienes Inmuebles -
property tax) and IRPF rebates (Impuesto sobre la Renta de las Personas
Físicas - income tax) for the installation of solar panels."
Spain and Spanish consumers drain millions from EU funds to put in
pointless windmills and solar panels.
It remains the only nation in the EU to claim renewable subsidies for
generating solar power in the middle of the night.
Batteries?
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
On 2025-08-14 11:13, Marc Haber wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 2025-08-13 21:30, Marc Haber wrote:
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
We want to, but France doesn't.
We would compete with their nuclear, so they protect it :-D
That's bad for all Europe.
Britain had plans to build solar plants in Morocco, and then a looong underwater cable to get it home. We could do the same, a cable from
Spain to Germany :-D
Next we'll have to prohibit ships dropping anchor anywhere.
On 2025-08-13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure,
the telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone
emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people
had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy-
chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
Whatever you are using as a source of information belongs in a round
file.
What caused the blackout was a sucession of problems in handling less-than-desirable conditions. This could have happened with *any*
kind of power source.
And, besides what might be the initial condition at an Iberdrola solar
power plant, there were also flaws at non-renewable (including nuclear) plants that played a role in creating the blackout.
Cut the crap of the "subsidy-chasing", that's quite visibly far-right misinformation. Renewables turn a profit by themselves, and that's why they're so present, at least in countries that didn't push back against
that based on political bias. (One might call these "first world
countries".)
On 2025-08-14 01:29, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 14:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-13 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home hadAnd so too today do cell phones and their towers
their own power. Even if the nation had a full power failure,
the telephone network kept running. Anybody could phone
emergencies or his cousin.
Absolutely not.
We had a total power failure in Spain few months back. Many people >>>>>> had non working cell phones, and others failed during the day. I
was fortunate because I live near an old exchange with huge
batteries and a diesel generator.
I am talking about first world countries.
Ho, ho, ho! Find another excuse.
We didn't crash our entire electricity grid because of too much
subsidy-
chasing renewables and not enough engineering.
Not yet
Whatever you are using as a source of information belongs in a round
file.
What caused the blackout was a sucession of problems in handling
less-than-desirable conditions. This could have happened with *any*
kind of power source.
And, besides what might be the initial condition at an Iberdrola solar
power plant, there were also flaws at non-renewable (including nuclear)
plants that played a role in creating the blackout.
Cut the crap of the "subsidy-chasing", that's quite visibly far-right
misinformation. Renewables turn a profit by themselves, and that's why
they're so present, at least in countries that didn't push back against
that based on political bias. (One might call these "first world
countries".)
Correct. (I simply did not want to discuss politics here).
The POTS network has been decommissioned in Spain, completely. At least
in Telefónica, the major player, and nobody else installed their own
copper pairs. It is fibre to the home and VoIP, using local power. So
with a mains power failure it goes down.
On 2025-08-13, Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own
power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
The terminals (desk telephones) did not have their own power, but were powered over the telephone lines (48V, ca 50 mA) from the central
switching offices. Government regulations required them to have
batteries that could keep everything running for 3 days and diesel
backup generators to work beyond that.
As traffic swictched to cellphones, there were for a long time no such quality standards enforced. Because if the cellphones did not work, we
still had the POTS network to fall back on. And now ATT is asking
permission in several states to completely turn off the wireline
service.
Hmmm ... just checked Amazon.
"Serial terminal" or "Serial RS-232 Terminal" shows
nothing but 'adapters'/cables. NO actual 'terminals'
of ANY tech.
I know a FEW build LED/LCD 'terminals - forget the
old vac-tube versions - but they sure don't show
up anywhere near the Amazon top list.
SMALL - 2 to 4 line - units are still made by
Scott Edwards ('Seetron') but 80x24 ... dunno.
I've used the SE units in the past - mostly
with 8051s. They're good, they work, they're
not too expensive, they're easy to interface.
But they're still no replacement for a hardware
80x24.
On 14/08/2025 10:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The POTS network has been decommissioned in Spain, completely. AtUnless you stop expecting someone else (like the EU..LOL) to supply it
least in Telefónica, the major player, and nobody else installed their
own copper pairs. It is fibre to the home and VoIP, using local power.
So with a mains power failure it goes down.
with backup, and install your own batteries inverters and diesel generators
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power supplies,. If I want to use it, I merely have to install something
similar here
On 2025-08-14 12:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/08/2025 10:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The POTS network has been decommissioned in Spain, completely. AtUnless you stop expecting someone else (like the EU..LOL) to supply it
least in Telefónica, the major player, and nobody else installed
their own copper pairs. It is fibre to the home and VoIP, using local
power. So with a mains power failure it goes down.
with backup, and install your own batteries inverters and diesel
generators
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power
supplies,. If I want to use it, I merely have to install something
similar here
I do have an UPS at the router, which died soon. I don't know what
failed sooner, the fibre or the ups. Supposedly the fibre is all optics
to the exchange and should have survived.
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
On 14/08/2025 13:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 12:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Well it is not supposedly, It is fact.
On 14/08/2025 10:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The POTS network has been decommissioned in Spain, completely. AtUnless you stop expecting someone else (like the EU..LOL) to supply
least in Telefónica, the major player, and nobody else installed
their own copper pairs. It is fibre to the home and VoIP, using
local power. So with a mains power failure it goes down.
it with backup, and install your own batteries inverters and diesel
generators
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable
power supplies,. If I want to use it, I merely have to install
something similar here
I do have an UPS at the router, which died soon. I don't know what
failed sooner, the fibre or the ups. Supposedly the fibre is all
optics to the exchange and should have survived.
Whether the exchange was simply not bothering to comply with national regulations, or whether there simply *are* no national regulations, is a
moot point.
You could have checked your UPS with a voltmeter. If you cared
But far easier to complain about how 'they' aren't looking out for your
every comfort, eh?
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from
the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
So as long as:
1) the copper wires from the phone in your home back to the exchange
were not damaged; and
2) fuel trucks could make deliveries to the exchange
then the POTS service could operate despite the power otherwise being
out for the area.
The new replacements (fiber, etc.) all require "power" at the usage end
(your home) and that power is not supplied from the exchange (this is
at least the case in the USA, TNP implied that the UK may operate
things differently). So if your power is off at your home, and you
don't have a backup for all the components required to "make/receive
phone calls" (usually the dmarc. point plus at least one 'router' like device) then you have no phone service during the power outage.
The big difference was that while 'expensive' it was both easier and ultimately cheaper to provide "large backup power" in a central
location (the phone exchange) than to distribute that "backup power"
out to each and every end point. So with the new connections, that distributed backup power often does not exist.
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from
the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the installation
of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power supplies,.
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell
On 8/14/25 12:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from
the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the
installation of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
I was in an area where all the bad stuff happened - no
landlines, no cell, no power, no govt water - for weeks.
Even most of the roads were blocked. Total infrastructure
failure. NOT good.
Barbara Bush DID fly in with bottled water though :-)
The FIRST thing to come back up was the landline phones.
In any case, invest in an all-channel battery radio. Not
too much money, well worth it. Might be your ONLY link
to What's Going On. SOME have little solar charging
panels built in.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:59:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power
supplies,.
But not at your end.
On 2025-08-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:59:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power
supplies,.
But not at your end.
If it is indeed powered on the ISP's side, that ought to mean that all
you need is a UPS?
On 2025-08-15 05:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 12:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from
the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the
installation of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
I was in an area where all the bad stuff happened - no
landlines, no cell, no power, no govt water - for weeks.
Even most of the roads were blocked. Total infrastructure
failure. NOT good.
Barbara Bush DID fly in with bottled water though :-)
The FIRST thing to come back up was the landline phones.
In any case, invest in an all-channel battery radio. Not
too much money, well worth it. Might be your ONLY link
to What's Going On. SOME have little solar charging
panels built in.
Are you thinking plain FM radio? Yes, I have one with battery
replenished days before, it was my float to safety. Shops run out of
them soon, and of batteries. Days later I got questions asked in Amazon
about the very same model I have.
Or do you mean two way radio? What band, 27? It is out of fashion since internet.
On 8/15/25 4:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-15 05:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 12:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>>> The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For >>>>>> whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from >>>>> the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the
installation of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
I was in an area where all the bad stuff happened - no
landlines, no cell, no power, no govt water - for weeks.
Even most of the roads were blocked. Total infrastructure
failure. NOT good.
Barbara Bush DID fly in with bottled water though :-)
The FIRST thing to come back up was the landline phones.
In any case, invest in an all-channel battery radio. Not
too much money, well worth it. Might be your ONLY link
to What's Going On. SOME have little solar charging
panels built in.
Are you thinking plain FM radio? Yes, I have one with battery
replenished days before, it was my float to safety. Shops run out of
them soon, and of batteries. Days later I got questions asked in
Amazon about the very same model I have.
Or do you mean two way radio? What band, 27? It is out of fashion
since internet.
I mean 'all-band' as in AM/FM/SW.
Transmitters ... require more power, in many cases
a license. 40 years ago I'd rec CB radio, but not
many use those anymore.
On 2025-08-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:59:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power
supplies,.
But not at your end.
If it is indeed powered on the ISP's side, that ought to mean that all
you need is a UPS?
On 2025-08-15 11:55, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2025-08-15, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 11:59:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In the UK fibre is powered at the far end by fully 24x7 reliable power >>>> supplies,.
But not at your end.
If it is indeed powered on the ISP's side, that ought to mean that all
you need is a UPS?
Yes, but you also need to maintain it.
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test
them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one
may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can
be connected to a computer for monitoring.
My take is that most UPS overcharge the batteries. They are
float-charging to 100%, with a constant current flow that kills gel
filled batteries, drying them out eventually. With the old liquid filled batteries you'd simply replenish with distilled water once a month and
they could last several years.
All the backup in the world isn't going to help when a gravel delivery
driver exits your premises with his tipper still up and cuts the overhead..
On 2025-08-15, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
All the backup in the world isn't going to help when a gravel delivery
driver exits your premises with his tipper still up and cuts the overhead..
BTDT. And although the telco's support droid had checkboxes on his screen for just about every sort of network malfunction, he didn't have one for
a cable being physically ripped out. It took days to convince them to dispatch a real live person.
Now, one private radio network that had both AM and FM stations, is
killing the AM stations. Probably too expensive to kill. ChatGPT
mentions two other private networks still having AM in some regions.
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test
them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one
may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can
be connected to a computer for monitoring.
On 2025-08-15 05:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 12:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For
whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from
the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the
installation of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
I was in an area where all the bad stuff happened - no landlines,
no cell, no power, no govt water - for weeks. Even most of the
roads were blocked. Total infrastructure failure. NOT good.
Barbara Bush DID fly in with bottled water though :-)
The FIRST thing to come back up was the landline phones.
In any case, invest in an all-channel battery radio. Not too much
money, well worth it. Might be your ONLY link to What's Going On.
SOME have little solar charging panels built in.
Are you thinking plain FM radio? Yes, I have one with battery
replenished days before, it was my float to safety. Shops run out of
them soon, and of batteries. Days later I got questions asked in Amazon
about the very same model I have.
Or do you mean two way radio? What band, 27? It is out of fashion since internet.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:42:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Now, one private radio network that had both AM and FM stations, is
killing the AM stations. Probably too expensive to kill. ChatGPT
mentions two other private networks still having AM in some regions.
The is a current food fight in the US. Car manufacturers want to drop AM completely but some weather alerts and road condition reports are still broadcast on AM. The commercial AM stations left in this area are mostly religious, right wing talk shows, or sports. I some times hear one if I accidentally hit the 'Mode' switch on the steering wheel.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 10:57:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-15 05:53, c186282 wrote:
On 8/14/25 12:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-14 15:32, Rich wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>>> The fact is that with POTS the phone service was assured for days
even in the case of a full power failure, and now with the
replacement, be it fibre or cellular, service is not assured. For >>>>>> whatever reasons.
The old legacy analog copper POTS phone system was fully powered from >>>>> the exchange building, and the exchange usually had both very large
batteries plus large diesel gensets to power itself during power
outages (both because of regulations requiring the backups).
I know. I worked in that sector, and I participated in the
installation of one such. We tested the power failure scenario.
I was in an area where all the bad stuff happened - no landlines,
no cell, no power, no govt water - for weeks. Even most of the
roads were blocked. Total infrastructure failure. NOT good.
Barbara Bush DID fly in with bottled water though :-)
The FIRST thing to come back up was the landline phones.
In any case, invest in an all-channel battery radio. Not too much
money, well worth it. Might be your ONLY link to What's Going On.
SOME have little solar charging panels built in.
Are you thinking plain FM radio? Yes, I have one with battery
replenished days before, it was my float to safety. Shops run out of
them soon, and of batteries. Days later I got questions asked in Amazon
about the very same model I have.
I have two Grundigs, a Satelite 700 and a Yachtboy. Both receive
commercial AM, FM, and all the HF frequencies used by hams as well as international broadcasters.
Or do you mean two way radio? What band, 27? It is out of fashion since
internet.
I've got three radios. Two operate on the amateur 2m band, one also has
the 70 centimeter bands. I also have a QRP (low power, 5 watts) tranciever for the 40 meter band, Morse code only, no voice.
The international broadcasters like Deutsche Welle have scaled back in
favor of web sites. although they still broadcast. I go to dw.com rather
than mess with schedules and propagation problems but in a pinch...
Others have shut down entirely.
As far as amateur radio in general, the hams are aging out. 2m handhelds
had a surge with the no-code license was introduced and cell phones were still expensive. At least in this area that has died down.
CB turned into a cesspool. I have no idea if it ever recovered. I should
do a scan on 11 meters.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:09:23 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test
them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one
may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can
be connected to a computer for monitoring.
I've had good luck with APC. I haven't set it up but it does have a USB connection for monitoring. Their PowerChute software specifies RHEL or
SUSE now instead of only Windows but I assume there is a general Linux solution.
One thing we found at work where the larger sample size meant more
instances of bad batteries is a box plugged into the wall will survive a brief flicker; one plugged into a UPS with a bad battery goes down hard.
AM is longer distance.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 23:00:28 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
AM is longer distance.
It’s not the modulation technique (e.g. AM vs FM vs digital) that determines the range, it is the frequency band. Medium wave has better
range than the VHF bands used for FM and (older) TV.
If we got rid of AM off MW and replaced it with DAB or DAB+ stations, we could get better-than-FM sound quality with each station taking up no more bandwidth than an AM station.
On 2025-08-15 22:46, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:42:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Now, one private radio network that had both AM and FM stations, is
killing the AM stations. Probably too expensive to kill. ChatGPT
mentions two other private networks still having AM in some regions.
The is a current food fight in the US. Car manufacturers want to drop AM
completely but some weather alerts and road condition reports are still
broadcast on AM. The commercial AM stations left in this area are mostly
religious, right wing talk shows, or sports. I some times hear one if I
accidentally hit the 'Mode' switch on the steering wheel.
AM is longer distance. There are many rural or mountainous areas in
Spain where FM doesn't reach but AM worked. I can imagine that it also happens in the USA, given your size and lower population density.
However, what stations are promoting as a solution is listening to them
via internet and some dedicated app.
On 8/16/25 12:53 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 23:00:28 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
AM is longer distance.
It’s not the modulation technique (e.g. AM vs FM vs digital) that
determines the range, it is the frequency band. Medium wave has better
range than the VHF bands used for FM and (older) TV.
Yep, MW at least partially follows the curve of the earth.
SOMETIMES you can get atmospheric 'bounce' too. I clearly
remember late night - you could sometimes get stations
from thousands of miles away, for awhile at least.
If we got rid of AM off MW and replaced it with DAB or DAB+ stations, we
could get better-than-FM sound quality with each station taking up no
more
bandwidth than an AM station.
AM will always suffer from 'static'. For 'talk shows' that
doesn't matter much. For music though ...
There are some ways to use AM for static-free, but it's
much more complicated and incompatible so nobody's
gonna do it.
Grand-dads 'crystal radio' should always work :-)
Well if you use AM encoded digital ...
On 15/08/2025 22:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2025-08-15 22:46, rbowman wrote:Exactly.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 13:42:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Now, one private radio network that had both AM and FM stations, is
killing the AM stations. Probably too expensive to kill. ChatGPT
mentions two other private networks still having AM in some regions.
The is a current food fight in the US. Car manufacturers want to drop
AM completely but some weather alerts and road condition reports are
still broadcast on AM. The commercial AM stations left in this area
are mostly religious, right wing talk shows, or sports. I some times
hear one if I accidentally hit the 'Mode' switch on the steering
wheel.
AM is longer distance. There are many rural or mountainous areas in
Spain where FM doesn't reach but AM worked. I can imagine that it also
happens in the USA, given your size and lower population density.
However, what stations are promoting as a solution is listening to them
via internet and some dedicated app.
When Internet becomes easier to receive than broadcast, you tend to use Internet instead
Problem with AM is that as originally designed, it is low audio
bandwidth on low frequency RF. So its intrinsically crap for music. It's better in the USA on wider channel spacing, but in Europe its unusable, especially since the ADSL carriers are all over the LW and MW bands.
Its main virtue is that it was back in the day a lot cheaper to build receivers for, and the transmitters could be miles away and the signal
would get through. Sort of
On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 10:54:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Problem with AM is that as originally designed, it is low audio
bandwidth on low frequency RF. So its intrinsically crap for music. It's
better in the USA on wider channel spacing, but in Europe its unusable,
especially since the ADSL carriers are all over the LW and MW bands.
Its main virtue is that it was back in the day a lot cheaper to build
receivers for, and the transmitters could be miles away and the signal
would get through. Sort of
Propagation is a problem with the US 530-1610 kHz broadcast band. During
the day atmospheric ionization kills the sky wave and the ground wave propagation distance is short enough that stations can be assigned frequencies that don't conflict.
At night all bets are off when the sky wave kicks in. There are assigned clear channel frequencies that can run 50 kW, but may need to use
directional antennas. Local stations on those frequencies either reduce
power or go off the air at sunset.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear-channel_station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPTfIPHLUcw
The Mexican stations have X series call signs and some of them were
running 250 kW, and not very fussy. Get down near the border and you might 'hear it on the X' when it overloaded your Walkman headphones. When I was
in southern AZ 20 miles from the border I built a highly directional AM antenna so I could listen to the Phoenix AM stations and null out the X.
I was envious of one of the X DJs. He could roll the 'r' in 'radio' for seconds. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrradio. I never could roll the r's in German too
well.
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio bandwidth,
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
On 2025-08-17, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
We have enough hills around here that even FM signals
can get noisy. And if you're stopped at a traffic light,
Murphy guarantees you'll be in a spot where multipath copies
of the signal cancel each other out.
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio bandwidth, >>
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
In North America it's 10kHz spacing, hence 5kHz bandwidth (plus a
few birdies if a station on the adjacent channel strays a bit over -
not that that's too likely now that AM stations are disappearing).
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
We have 200kHz spacing too, but centered on odd tenths of a megahertz
rather than even tenths. (That keeps the signal from going outside the 88-108MHz band.)
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
By then everything will be digital via Internet or satellite -
and the signal will be compressed into crap so it doesn't really
matter anyway.
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio
bandwidth,
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
"To allow room for more stations on the medium wave broadcast band in
the United States, in June 1989 the FCC adopted a National Radio Systems Committee (NRSC) standard that limited maximum transmitted *audio*
bandwidth to 10.2 kHz, limiting *occupied* bandwidth to 20.4 kHz. The
former audio limitation was 15 kHz resulting in bandwidth of 30 kHz."
So channel spacing in the USA is in fact 20Khz
By then everything will be digital via Internet or satellite - and
the signal will be compressed into crap so it doesn't really matter
anyway.
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio bandwidth,
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 18:12:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
By then everything will be digital via Internet or satellite - and
the signal will be compressed into crap so it doesn't really matter
anyway.
Digital offers you a tradeoff between bandwidth and quality. Of course commercial providers will make the choice that maximizes revenue, but just
as well they are not the sole providers of audio/video content anyway ...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 21:02:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
"To allow room for more stations on the medium wave broadcast band in
the United States, in June 1989 the FCC adopted a National Radio Systems
Committee (NRSC) standard that limited maximum transmitted *audio*
bandwidth to 10.2 kHz, limiting *occupied* bandwidth to 20.4 kHz. The
former audio limitation was 15 kHz resulting in bandwidth of 30 kHz."
So channel spacing in the USA is in fact 20Khz
In practice the wings from the center frequency are down so many db they
do not matter unless you're in front of a spectrum analyzer.
On 2025-08-18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 18:12:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
By then everything will be digital via Internet or satellite - and
the signal will be compressed into crap so it doesn't really matter
anyway.
Digital offers you a tradeoff between bandwidth and quality. Of course
commercial providers will make the choice that maximizes revenue, but just >> as well they are not the sole providers of audio/video content anyway ...
What about complexity of implementation for receivers?
On 17/08/2025 22:29, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 21:02:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
"To allow room for more stations on the medium wave broadcast band in
the United States, in June 1989 the FCC adopted a National Radio
Systems Committee (NRSC) standard that limited maximum transmitted
*audio* bandwidth to 10.2 kHz, limiting *occupied* bandwidth to 20.4
kHz. The former audio limitation was 15 kHz resulting in bandwidth of
30 kHz."
So channel spacing in the USA is in fact 20Khz
In practice the wings from the center frequency are down so many db
they do not matter unless you're in front of a spectrum analyzer.
Oh dear. Well you cant argue with ignorance
On Mon, 18 Aug 2025 10:39:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 22:29, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 21:02:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
"To allow room for more stations on the medium wave broadcast band in
the United States, in June 1989 the FCC adopted a National Radio
Systems Committee (NRSC) standard that limited maximum transmitted
*audio* bandwidth to 10.2 kHz, limiting *occupied* bandwidth to 20.4
kHz. The former audio limitation was 15 kHz resulting in bandwidth of
30 kHz."
So channel spacing in the USA is in fact 20Khz
In practice the wings from the center frequency are down so many db
they do not matter unless you're in front of a spectrum analyzer.
Oh dear. Well you cant argue with ignorance
You are absolutely correct. I should ignore you.
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:09:23 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test
them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one
may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can
be connected to a computer for monitoring.
I've had good luck with APC. I haven't set it up but it does have a USB connection for monitoring. Their PowerChute software specifies RHEL or
SUSE now instead of only Windows but I assume there is a general Linux solution.
One thing we found at work where the larger sample size meant more
instances of bad batteries is a box plugged into the wall will survive a brief flicker; one plugged into a UPS with a bad battery goes down hard.
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio bandwidth,
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
On 2025-08-17 11:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/08/2025 09:08, c186282 wrote:
"AM" is 'fair' for music ... not like you have
McIntosh amps/speakers in your car. It is, well,
"adequate".
The main prob is NOISE ...
That is because your RF bandwidth is only as wide as your audio
bandwidth,
And in Europe its SHIT for music, unless you are deaf. 4kHz is the
absolute limit
(We have 9kHz channel spacing)
Even FM in Europe is a bit restricted as IIRC they crammed channels in
at 200kHz spacing. Its not enough.
For decent stereo you need 400kHz...
What about digital radio?
On 2025-08-15 22:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:09:23 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test
them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one
may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can
be connected to a computer for monitoring.
I've had good luck with APC. I haven't set it up but it does have a USB
connection for monitoring. Their PowerChute software specifies RHEL or
SUSE now instead of only Windows but I assume there is a general Linux
solution.
One thing we found at work where the larger sample size meant more
instances of bad batteries is a box plugged into the wall will survive a
brief flicker; one plugged into a UPS with a bad battery goes down hard.
I'm happy with Eaton. I have one (managed) powering this desktop (has
2*12 batteries), and I bought another (not managed) for my router, just
one 12v battery. I think it beeps when battery is bad, we'll see.
The new one at the router is not managed, but I don't have a permanent computer there to manage it, anyway.
On 8/19/25 04:55, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-08-15 22:28, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2025 12:09:23 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some UPS claim that the batteries last 4 years, but in my experience
they last 2. There is the possibility that brand name batteries are
actually better and last 4 years.
Many UPS don't say the status of the battery, you have to actually test >>>> them manually with a stop watch. They may have a display, but that one >>>> may be difficult to see when the UPS is out of sight. Only some UPS can >>>> be connected to a computer for monitoring.
I've had good luck with APC. I haven't set it up but it does have a USB
connection for monitoring. Their PowerChute software specifies RHEL or
SUSE now instead of only Windows but I assume there is a general Linux
solution.
One thing we found at work where the larger sample size meant more
instances of bad batteries is a box plugged into the wall will survive a >>> brief flicker; one plugged into a UPS with a bad battery goes down hard.
I'm happy with Eaton. I have one (managed) powering this desktop (has
2*12 batteries), and I bought another (not managed) for my router,
just one 12v battery. I think it beeps when battery is bad, we'll see.
The new one at the router is not managed, but I don't have a permanent
computer there to manage it, anyway.
When I had a C_64 and was doing accounting for friend I had to buy
a line conditioner. It helped improve the reliabilty of the power going
to the
little computer. I went on to the Amiga and a modern(?) switching power supply. I considered getting UPS but could not come up with the price.
In the mid-2000s maybe 2005 I got my first x86 laptop and have stuck
with laptops because they include their own batteries. I thnk all other form factors which do not have UPS should have their own batteries internally. It would save a lot work recovering from brown out and
power shut downs in some areas.
I am lucky in that in San Francisco I happen through lucky
chance to be on the same power line as the St.Francis Hospital
3 blocks further up Nob Hill. Very seldom do I experience power
failures but it can happen. A side note is that the last time I remember
it happening was when a Trolley bus shorted out 800 V DC power to
a local streetlamp and wiped out all the wiring in the utility vault.
It took most of the day for the maintanance crews to pull
fresh wiring into the buildings served by that vault. I could not
get to the net as the modem/router had no power but I lost no
work. And just maybe because of my high quality power strips
I lost no appliances. In the adjacent apartment their TV was
wasted by the surge.
bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2025.08- Linux 6.12.42-pclos1- KDE
Plasma 6.4.4
On 2025-08-14 11:13, Marc Haber wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 2025-08-13 21:30, Marc Haber wrote:
What Spain should be doing is building more power lines into France,
so that we in Middle Europe can buy their renewable power.
We want to, but France doesn't.
We would compete with their nuclear, so they protect it :-D
That's bad for all Europe.
Britain had plans to build solar plants in Morocco, and then a looong underwater cable to get it home. We could do the same, a cable from
Spain to Germany :-D
Next we'll have to prohibit ships dropping anchor anywhere.
Well in California we had subsidies and it paid off for home owners among whose blessed ranks I will never be counted but we are producing
power from wind and solar and we have batteries to back that up.
Big batteries. Not in your home but close to the sites where that power
is generated.
No subsidies are needed except on the home owners level and
only of course the home owners who can spend the money for
solar panels and hopefull a set of batteries in the garage where
they can charge up their electric Porshe runabout.
bliss
On 14/08/2025 2:04 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
<Snip>
Well in California we had subsidies and it paid off for home owners
among whose blessed ranks I will never be counted but we are producing
power from wind and solar and we have batteries to back that up.
Big batteries. Not in your home but close to the sites where that power
is generated.
No subsidies are needed except on the home owners level and
only of course the home owners who can spend the money for
solar panels and hopefull a set of batteries in the garage where
they can charge up their electric Porshe runabout.
bliss
The problem with that, though, is when your panels are producing power,
your electric Porsche runabout is usually somewhere else. When it's at
Home, the panels probably aren't producing a lot of power. ;-(
On 2025-08-13, Carlos E. R. <[email protected]d> wrote:
Telcos systems were subject to strict quality control systems, that
worked. VoIP systems are not.
As an example that anybody can see, the terminals at home had their own
power. Even if the nation had a full power failure, the telephone
network kept running. Anybody could phone emergencies or his cousin.
The terminals (desk telephones) did not have their own power, but were powered over the telephone lines (48V, ca 50 mA) from the central
switching offices. Government regulations required them to have
batteries that could keep everything running for 3 days and diesel
backup generators to work beyond that.
As traffic swictched to cellphones, there were for a long time no such quality standards enforced. Because if the cellphones did not work, we
still had the POTS network to fall back on. And now ATT is asking
permission in several states to completely turn off the wireline
service.
On the flip-side, my sister told me the other day that her Home Phone
line was about to be upgraded to Fibre-to-the-Home.
Ten/Fifteen years or so ago, our Phone system had been upgraded to Fibre-to-the Building for Business and those Home-owners who wanted to
pay the premium for Fibre-to-the-Home. Everyone else just got Fibre-to-the-Node, i.e. the box on the nature-strip somewhere in the
street, then twisted-pair wire to the Home.
One problem is that there are locations where FTTP will never be
available, and there's no rational alternative that will work for everybody. So it's likely that copper pairs will support landline
phones in such locations for at least another 50 years.
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
On the flip-side, my sister told me the other day that her Home Phone
line was about to be upgraded to Fibre-to-the-Home.
In the UK this is called FTTP (Fibre-To-The-Premises) and it is supposed
to happen for everybody by January 2027, but it has been postponed
several times already. One problem is that there are locations where
FTTP will never be available, and there's no rational alternative that
will work for everybody. So it's likely that copper pairs will support landline phones in such locations for at least another 50 years.
Ten/Fifteen years or so ago, our Phone system had been upgraded to
Fibre-to-the Building for Business and those Home-owners who wanted to
pay the premium for Fibre-to-the-Home. Everyone else just got Fibre-
to-the-Node, i.e. the box on the nature-strip somewhere in the street,
then twisted-pair wire to the Home.
In the UK Fibre-to-the-Node is called Fibre-To-The-Cabinet or FTTC. It's fairly widely available except in crowded cities (no street space) and
rural areas (not enough paying customers).
A further difficulty is that there are still phone users who do not have
and do not want any sort of broadband service. So these people are
being provided with a crippled router which drives a standard handset.
Clearly, the cost and maintenance of VoIP is way less than the cost of
copper pairs and exchange switchgear, so it's not surprising that the
telcos are moving this way. But there's been no public explanation that
is meaningful to older users.
On 02/09/2025 16:27, Graham J wrote:
One problem is that there are locations where FTTP will never be
available, and there's no rational alternative that will work for
everybody. So it's likely that copper pairs will support landline
phones in such locations for at least another 50 years.
Very few locations where fttp will not be available , and those will
have 5G
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 16:27, Graham J wrote:
One problem is that there are locations where FTTP will never be
available, and there's no rational alternative that will work for
everybody. So it's likely that copper pairs will support landline
phones in such locations for at least another 50 years.
Very few locations where fttp will not be available , and those will
have 5G
Exactly. I know of at least one - discussed here at length in the past
- where the user has been explicitly told by BT Openreach that he will
never get any sort of digital service.
Ten/Fifteen years or so ago, our Phone system had been upgraded to Fibre-to-the Building for Business and those Home-owners who wanted to
pat the premium for Fibre-to-the-Home. Everyone else just got Fibre-to-the-Node, i.e. the box on the nature-strip somewhere in the
street, then twisted-pair wire to the Home.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 00:32:44 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Ten/Fifteen years or so ago, our Phone system had been upgraded to
Fibre-to-the Building for Business and those Home-owners who wanted to
pat the premium for Fibre-to-the-Home. Everyone else just got
Fibre-to-the-Node, i.e. the box on the nature-strip somewhere in the
street, then twisted-pair wire to the Home.
Fibre-to-the-Home would be expensive in this area. Most homes are set back well away from the highway. That's probably why cable never was run out
here.
On 14/08/2025 2:04 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
<Snip>
Well in California we had subsidies and it paid off for home
owners
among whose blessed ranks I will never be counted but we are producing
power from wind and solar and we have batteries to back that up.
Big batteries. Not in your home but close to the sites where that power
is generated.
No subsidies are needed except on the home owners level and
only of course the home owners who can spend the money for solar panels
and hopefull a set of batteries in the garage where they can charge up
their electric Porshe runabout.
bliss
The problem with that, though, is when your panels are producing power,
your electric Porsche runabout is usually somewhere else. When it's at
Home, the panels probably aren't producing a lot of power. ;-(
On 02/09/2025 20:34, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 00:32:44 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
Ten/Fifteen years or so ago, our Phone system had been upgraded to
Fibre-to-the Building for Business and those Home-owners who wanted to
pat the premium for Fibre-to-the-Home. Everyone else just got
Fibre-to-the-Node, i.e. the box on the nature-strip somewhere in the
street, then twisted-pair wire to the Home.
Fibre-to-the-Home would be expensive in this area. Most homes are set
back
well away from the highway. That's probably why cable never was run out
here.
The thing is that a crude 'fibre on a wooden pole' setup is actually
very very cheap. Especially if you supply the poles.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 00:23:31 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:
On 14/08/2025 2:04 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
<Snip>
Well in California we had subsidies and it paid off for home
owners
among whose blessed ranks I will never be counted but we are producing
power from wind and solar and we have batteries to back that up.
Big batteries. Not in your home but close to the sites where that power
is generated.
No subsidies are needed except on the home owners level and
only of course the home owners who can spend the money for solar panels
and hopefull a set of batteries in the garage where they can charge up
their electric Porshe runabout.
bliss
The problem with that, though, is when your panels are producing power,
your electric Porsche runabout is usually somewhere else. When it's at
Home, the panels probably aren't producing a lot of power. ;-(
The Porsche's spare set of batteries are home being charged. That scheme
has been floated out but I don't see it happening. It's not quite like swapping out the spares in my drones.
I thought that fibre on poles was impossible, that the fibre had to be unmovable.
On 14/08/2025 2:04 pm, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
<Snip>
Well in California we had subsidies and it paid off for home owners
among whose blessed ranks I will never be counted but we are producing
power from wind and solar and we have batteries to back that up.
Big batteries. Not in your home but close to the sites where that power
is generated.
No subsidies are needed except on the home owners level and
only of course the home owners who can spend the money for
solar panels and hopefull a set of batteries in the garage where
they can charge up their electric Porshe runabout.
bliss
The problem with that, though, is when your panels are producing power,
your electric Porsche runabout is usually somewhere else. When it's at
Home, the panels probably aren't producing a lot of power. ;-(
Daniel70 wrote:
[snip]
On the flip-side, my sister told me the other day that her Home Phone
line was about to be upgraded to Fibre-to-the-Home.
In the UK this is called FTTP (Fibre-To-The-Premises) and it is supposed
to happen for everybody by January 2027, but it has been postponed
several times already. One problem is that there are locations where
FTTP will never be available, and there's no rational alternative that
will work for everybody. So it's likely that copper pairs will support landline phones in such locations for at least another 50 years.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 715 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 08:17:55 |
| Calls: | 12,100 |
| Files: | 15,003 |
| Messages: | 6,517,952 |