c186282 wrote:

On 4/8/25 9:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2025 15:39:47 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

The only time I've had to use vi command history editing was with some
old version of VxWorks. It was the only kind included by default. I
ended up teaching some colleagues on how to edit the command line, vi
style.

Seems a bit dumb, having to go into insert mode every time you actually
want to type a command.

That's not how it works. After the shell writes a command prompt,
it is in insert mode, so you just type a command as normal. To edit
the current command, or search the history, you type ESC to get out
of insert mode and then perform the edit or search just like in vi
(except that RETURN executes the edited command instead of moving to
the next "line").

It's terrible - and was obsolete already by 1985.

It became an IEEE standard in 1992 (and ISO in 1993) for
POSIX-conforming shells, and has remained standard to this day.
IEEE chose not to include emacs mode, so effectively it is emacs
mode that was treated as obsolete (in 1992).

--
Geoff Clare <[email protected]>

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On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 13:26:48 +0100, Geoff Clare wrote:

On 4/8/25 9:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2025 15:39:47 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

The only time I've had to use vi command history editing was with
some old version of VxWorks. It was the only kind included by
default. I ended up teaching some colleagues on how to edit the
command line, vi style.

Seems a bit dumb, having to go into insert mode every time you
actually want to type a command.

That's not how it works.

But that’s how the vi/vim editor family works. Are you saying that a command-line editor that is supposed to work like those editors doesn’t in fact, emulate them entirely faithfully?

After the shell writes a command prompt, it is
in insert mode, so you just type a command as normal. To edit the
current command, or search the history, you type ESC to get out of
insert mode and then perform the edit or search just like in vi (except
that RETURN executes the edited command instead of moving to the next "line").

Seems like a lot of unnecessary back-and-forth.

It became an IEEE standard in 1992 (and ISO in 1993) for
POSIX-conforming shells, and has remained standard to this day. IEEE
chose not to include emacs mode, so effectively it is emacs mode that
was treated as obsolete (in 1992).

Nevertheless, that is the one that is most commonly used in *nix systems
today.

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In comp.os.linux.misc, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 13:26:48 +0100, Geoff Clare wrote:

On 4/8/25 9:16 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

Seems a bit dumb, having to go into insert mode every time you
actually want to type a command.

That's not how it works.

But that’s how the vi/vim editor family works. Are you saying that a command-line editor that is supposed to work like those editors doesn’t in fact, emulate them entirely faithfully?

It is not advertised as an "entirely faithfully" emulation. In fact, the
crappy vi-mode in early versions of bash is why I ended up preferring
ksh, which I still use to this day when available.

It is advertised as "vi-style command line editing interface" in recent
bash and readline man-pages, and "a vi style in-line editor" in ksh's
manpage. One of the key differences, which is very helpful for shell
usage, is every line starts in insert mode.

Other things missing from "vi-style" (or "vi style") are the : commands
and most multiline movement commands, eg H, L, M (, ), {, }, [[, ]], and
gg. But G does work to go to oldest item in history.

Elijah
------
overall it works better than the vi included with busybox

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On 2025-04-12, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 13:26:48 +0100, Geoff Clare wrote:

It became an IEEE standard in 1992 (and ISO in 1993) for
POSIX-conforming shells, and has remained standard to this day. IEEE
chose not to include emacs mode, so effectively it is emacs mode that
was treated as obsolete (in 1992).

Nevertheless, that is the one that is most commonly used in *nix systems today.

Oh, I didn't know Emacs edit mode was that common, which other shells
support it besides GNU bash?

(Yes, we're in comp.os.linux.misc, but, following the mention of "*nix systems", I'm talking about shells in all such systems, not just
linux-based systems.)

--
Nuno Silva

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On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 09:47:22 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

Oh, I didn't know Emacs edit mode was that common, which other shells
support it besides GNU bash?

It’s not the shell specifically that supports it, remember. It’s actually
a separate library called GNU readline, that is also used by a lot of
other software.

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In comp.os.linux.misc, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 09:47:22 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

Oh, I didn't know Emacs edit mode was that common, which other shells
support it besides GNU bash?

It’s not the shell specifically that supports it, remember. It’s actually

Well akshuly. In ksh it is built into the shell, not gnu. That's how I
used it with the shells on HP-UX and Solaris.

It’s not the shell specifically that supports it, remember. It’s actually a separate library called GNU readline, that is also used by a lot of
other software.

Gnu readline is used in bc(1), for example, which lets me have have vi
mode there, but it has also caused the bc developers to lose the ability
to have blank lines from a user hitting enter twice.

I complained to [email protected] in 2022 about this and got back a reply
from Phil Nelson:

| This appears to be a GNU Readline issue. Readline never sends the
| blank line to bc. I've tried to track it down, but with no success.

Elijah
------
can't think of any other programs where he encounters readline()

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On Di 15 Apr 2025 at 23:28, Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

Well akshuly. In ksh it is built into the shell, not gnu. That's how I
used it with the shells on HP-UX and Solaris.

In zsh it is the same - no readline there.

'Andreas
--
ceterum censeo redmondinem esse delendam

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On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 23:28:35 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

can't think of any other programs where he encounters readline()

<https://docs.python.org/3/library/readline.html>

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In comp.os.linux.misc, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 23:28:35 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

can't think of any other programs where he encounters readline()

<https://docs.python.org/3/library/readline.html>

That's just a wrapper to use in in Python scripts that interact with
the user. I do not believe I have ever encountered a script using it.
But that does remind me that the Perl CPAN shell can optionally use
the Perl wrapper of the readline library. I don't usually have that
Perl wrapper installed however.

Elijah
------
knows it is used in programs outside his concern

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On 2025-04-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 09:47:22 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

Oh, I didn't know Emacs edit mode was that common, which other shells
support it besides GNU bash?

It’s not the shell specifically that supports it, remember. It’s actually a separate library called GNU readline, that is also used by a lot of
other software.

What is "*the* shell"?

The question is the same, whether this is implemented internally or in a separate library (GNU or non-GNU). Are Emacs keybindings that usual in
UNIX shells?

--
Nuno Silva

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On Fri, 18 Apr 2025 04:22:27 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 23:28:35 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

can't think of any other programs where he encounters readline()

<https://docs.python.org/3/library/readline.html>

That's just a wrapper to use in in Python scripts that interact with
the user.

ldo@theon:~> apt-cache rdepends libreadline8t64 | wc -l
325

Do you want a full list?

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In comp.os.linux.misc, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Apr 2025 04:22:27 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

That's just a wrapper to use in in Python scripts that interact with
the user.

ldo@theon:~> apt-cache rdepends libreadline8t64 | wc -l
325

Do you want a full list?

The things using libreadline and the things using the Python libreadline
are different. sqlite3, for example, is in the list, but isn't using
Python. I've already pointed out there's a Perl libreadline library,
too.

(I perused the full list on my system and very few were things that I
have run in say, the last 12 months, but sqlite3 and gdb are there and
I've used those.)

Elijah
------
not quite sure why inkscape is on the list

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