• Colorado hands-free driving law taking effect in the new year

    From David Yurman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 11 07:51:04 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, sac.politics
    XPost: talk.politics.guns

    (The Center Square) � A new, hands-free driving law will take effect in Colorado at the start of the new year.

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed to
    use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via hands-
    free accessories.

    "This new legislation is a crucial step toward making Colorado's roads
    safer for everyone," Shoshana Lew, executive director of CDOT, said in a
    news release. "By encouraging drivers to focus solely on the task of
    driving, we can reduce the number of distracted driving incidents and
    prevent crashes that often come with such behavior. This law aligns with
    best practices from across the nation and reflects our commitment to
    protecting all road users, whether in a vehicle, on a bike, or walking."

    Colorado has a law against texting and driving, but this new law expands
    the rule to include manually using a phone or any other mobile device for
    a phone call or any other reason.

    First-time offenders will face a $75 fine and two license suspension
    points, while repeat offenders will face stiffer penalties.

    The law offers some exemptions. Those include, "reporting emergencies,
    utility workers, code enforcement officers, animal protection officers,
    first responders and individuals in parked vehicles," according to the
    Colorado Department of Transportation.

    Additionally, people driving a commercial vehicle with a commercial
    driver's license are exempt from the law.

    The Colorado Department of Transportation says many car crashes are preventable, and mitigating distracted driving is one way to reduce
    instances of it.

    "For a long time, troopers have been able to detect when someone is
    driving distracted by a vehicle weaving between lanes, delayed starts at
    stop signs and lights, not to mention seeing a phone or other device in a driver's hand," Col. Matthew Packard, chief of the Colorado State Patrol,
    said in the release. "This legislation allows us to address risky and
    careless behaviors in a proactive way to increase the safety of all
    roadway users."

    Here are the hands-free devices the Colorado Department of Transportation
    says the new law will permit:

    Dashboard/Phone Mounts: These secure your phone in a visible but safe
    position, enabling the use of navigation or hands-free calls without
    holding the device.

    Apple CarPlay/Android Auto: Built-in or aftermarket systems that integrate
    your smartphone with your vehicle's display, allowing you to control your
    phone through voice commands or your car's interface.

    Built-in Car Speaker Systems: Many cars come equipped with Bluetooth-
    enabled speaker systems that allow hands-free communication and audio navigation. If your car does not have Bluetooth, there are plug-in devices
    for purchase that enable the feature through your vehicle's existing
    stereo system.

    Governor Jared Polis signed this policy into law in June 2024. The
    legislation, Senate Bill 65, passed in both chambers with overwhelming bipartisan support.

    When this law takes effect, 30 states will have bans on using hand-held
    devices while driving.

    https://www.thecentersquare.com/colorado/article_60ef9422-b72d-11ef-96f1- 07c9b7ac6072.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to David Yurman on Wed Dec 11 17:13:54 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, sac.politics
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed to
    use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via hands- free accessories.

    Notwithstanding the police and fire vehicles have tons of electronics in
    them and they're not hands free, the fact that most people can't comprehend (because they simply guess at everything is there is no reliable scientific evidence that the use of cellphones in the USA in vehicles had any effect whatsoever (up or down) on the reliably reported accident rate over the
    period before cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketed, during the
    period where cellphone ownership percentages went from 0% to nearly 100%,
    and afterward, to today.

    The accident rate, as reported by the US Census Bureau, which has been reporting these figures accurately since the 1920's, shows no effect.

    Actually, the accident rate has been slowly trending downward, but that was happening before, during the rise in ownership, and after the plateau.

    Nobody can find a single cite on the entire Internet showing US accident
    rates rising from before, to during and after cellphones existed.

    The *only* people claiming it did make money out of creating the laws.
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance

    Nobody on this newsgroup has ever found a reliable cite showing the
    accident rate in the USA rising in accord with cellphone ownership.

    All they can find is lawyers, police and insurance companies saying it.
    But those three entities have a reason to skew numbers for money.

    If you look at the government US Census Bureau figures, there are blips
    here and there (since accident rates depend on many factors), but there is
    zero evidence of the rise that the lawyers, police & insurance claim.

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    Likewise with the idiots out there who love to claim "correlation does not imply causation" instantly wipes out all the good data that you simply do
    not like, then again, show evidence of your claim that the accident rate skyrocketed when cellphones were introduced.

    You have plenty of data in the US Census Bureau figures becaue they list
    them for every year since the 1920's for every state and for the USA as a whole.

    So you can watch every state and list when the cellphone laws went into
    effect and you can see that there is ZERO evidence of a rise (or fall) in accidents due to the astoundingly huge and precipitously sudden rise in cellphone ownership rates.

    For those who are slightly intelligent who claim (reasonably so) that
    nobgody has reliable statistics for whether, given the thousands of
    accidents a year, whether the cellphone itself was the cause, that's true.
    So live with it. Don't fantasize that it caused it when you don't know.

    Likewise, for those who are a bit more reasonable, who claim that we can't
    even tell when a cellphone is being used in a car given the thousands of accidents per year, that's also true. So live with that lack of data.
    Don't make it up simply because your friend of your sister had a cellphone
    and then there was an accident.

    Back to the ignorant, the fact that you can find an anecdotal case of a cellphone causing an accident is meaningless in terms of statistics. Yes, I know, you can't handle math so you think 1 is the same a 1 million, but
    stop fantasizing that every sensational news storey is what happens in the statistics.

    I'm sure very moron out there can dig up one accident out of the hundreds
    of thousands over the years which *was* caused by a cellphone. For sure.

    But that's ridiculous to make a law based on that. You may as well make a
    law that crying kids and wife arguing should be made illegal simply because each of them has caused one accident by your Aunt Mary with your uncle Jim.

    In summary, the law is baseless.

    Mainly it's political because 3 agencies love to make money on this law:
    1. Insurance
    2. Police
    3. Lawyers

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 10:55:46 2024
    XPost: rec.autos.driving, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 2024-12-11 09:13, Andrew wrote:
    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed
    to use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via
    hands-
    free accessories.

    Notwithstanding the police and fire vehicles have tons of electronics in
    them and they're not hands free, the fact that most people can't comprehend (because they simply guess at everything is there is no reliable scientific evidence that the use of cellphones in the USA in vehicles had any effect whatsoever (up or down) on the reliably reported accident rate over the period before cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketed, during the
    period where cellphone ownership percentages went from 0% to nearly 100%,
    and afterward, to today.

    The accident rate, as reported by the US Census Bureau, which has been reporting these figures accurately since the 1920's, shows no effect.

    Actually, the accident rate has been slowly trending downward, but that was happening before, during the rise in ownership, and after the plateau.

    Nobody can find a single cite on the entire Internet showing US accident rates rising from before, to during and after cellphones existed.

    The *only* people claiming it did make money out of creating the laws.
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance

    Nobody on this newsgroup has ever found a reliable cite showing the
    accident rate in the USA rising in accord with cellphone ownership.
    'The findings of the present study confirmed the impairments associated
    with the use of mobile phones among young drivers leading to poor
    control of the vehicle. '

    <https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8297239/>

    'As a result of meta-analysis Prepared for Foundation for Traffic Safety
    by Caird et al., 2018, the general conclusion on the effects of mobile
    phone use while driving suggested by White et al., 2004 is that both the
    use of handheld and hands-free mobile sets significantly increased the
    risk of having a car accident. They found that the use of different
    phone types was associated with an increase of approximately 40% of
    reaction time and an accident risk multiplied by 4. According to
    Billieux et al., 2008 it seems that mobile phone use while driving is
    related to a high level of dangerous behaviors.'

    <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1687850723001401>

    Shall I go on?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 18:17:07 2024
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:13:54 -0000 (UTC), Andrew <[email protected]> wrote: >David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :
    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed to
    use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via hands- >> free accessories.

    Notwithstanding the police and fire vehicles have tons of electronics in
    them and they're not hands free, the fact that most people can't comprehend >(because they simply guess at everything is there is no reliable scientific >evidence that the use of cellphones in the USA in vehicles had any effect >whatsoever (up or down) on the reliably reported accident rate over the >period before cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketed, during the
    period where cellphone ownership percentages went from 0% to nearly 100%,
    and afterward, to today.
    The accident rate, as reported by the US Census Bureau, which has been >reporting these figures accurately since the 1920's, shows no effect. >Actually, the accident rate has been slowly trending downward, but that was >happening before, during the rise in ownership, and after the plateau.
    Nobody can find a single cite on the entire Internet showing US accident >rates rising from before, to during and after cellphones existed.
    The *only* people claiming it did make money out of creating the laws.
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance
    Nobody on this newsgroup has ever found a reliable cite showing the
    accident rate in the USA rising in accord with cellphone ownership.
    All they can find is lawyers, police and insurance companies saying it.
    But those three entities have a reason to skew numbers for money.
    If you look at the government US Census Bureau figures, there are blips
    here and there (since accident rates depend on many factors), but there is >zero evidence of the rise that the lawyers, police & insurance claim.
    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence is >not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents that >you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist. >Likewise with the idiots out there who love to claim "correlation does not >imply causation" instantly wipes out all the good data that you simply do
    not like, then again, show evidence of your claim that the accident rate >skyrocketed when cellphones were introduced.
    You have plenty of data in the US Census Bureau figures becaue they list
    them for every year since the 1920's for every state and for the USA as a >whole.
    So you can watch every state and list when the cellphone laws went into >effect and you can see that there is ZERO evidence of a rise (or fall) in >accidents due to the astoundingly huge and precipitously sudden rise in >cellphone ownership rates.
    For those who are slightly intelligent who claim (reasonably so) that
    nobgody has reliable statistics for whether, given the thousands of
    accidents a year, whether the cellphone itself was the cause, that's true.
    So live with it. Don't fantasize that it caused it when you don't know. >Likewise, for those who are a bit more reasonable, who claim that we can't >even tell when a cellphone is being used in a car given the thousands of >accidents per year, that's also true. So live with that lack of data.
    Don't make it up simply because your friend of your sister had a cellphone >and then there was an accident.
    Back to the ignorant, the fact that you can find an anecdotal case of a >cellphone causing an accident is meaningless in terms of statistics. Yes, I >know, you can't handle math so you think 1 is the same a 1 million, but
    stop fantasizing that every sensational news storey is what happens in the >statistics.
    I'm sure very moron out there can dig up one accident out of the hundreds
    of thousands over the years which *was* caused by a cellphone. For sure.
    But that's ridiculous to make a law based on that. You may as well make a
    law that crying kids and wife arguing should be made illegal simply because >each of them has caused one accident by your Aunt Mary with your uncle Jim. >In summary, the law is baseless.
    Mainly it's political because 3 agencies love to make money on this law:
    1. Insurance
    2. Police
    3. Lawyers

    those that live by the sword rule the world ... divine right of kings
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stand+for+the+flag+kneel+for+the+cross+meme
    (substitute the american flag with any other national flag and voila)

    the bible calls this world the great winepress, east of eden, under the
    sun, lake of fire, gehenna, second death, generations, resurrection etc.
    so we mere mortals are lucky that anything works in this flawless place

    it's the same everywhere . . . . soylent population centers of activity
    where nothing changes yet everything evolves, and human nature is fixed
    because it's genetic: they worship mammon because they were born for it

    regards the state . . . state of the union . . . state of human affairs
    nothing changes > > > can't fight city hall < < < nothing changes

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From super70s@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 13:38:40 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 2024-12-11 17:13:54 +0000, Andrew said:

    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed to use >> a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via hands-free >> accessories.

    Notwithstanding the police and fire vehicles have tons of electronics in
    them and they're not hands free, the fact that most people can't comprehend (because they simply guess at everything is there is no reliable scientific evidence that the use of cellphones in the USA in vehicles had any effect whatsoever (up or down) on the reliably reported accident rate over the period before cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketed, during the
    period where cellphone ownership percentages went from 0% to nearly 100%,
    and afterward, to today.

    The accident rate, as reported by the US Census Bureau, which has been reporting these figures accurately since the 1920's, shows no effect.

    Actually, the accident rate has been slowly trending downward, but that was happening before, during the rise in ownership, and after the plateau.

    Nobody can find a single cite on the entire Internet showing US accident rates rising from before, to during and after cellphones existed.

    The *only* people claiming it did make money out of creating the laws.
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance

    Nobody on this newsgroup has ever found a reliable cite showing the
    accident rate in the USA rising in accord with cellphone ownership.

    All they can find is lawyers, police and insurance companies saying it.
    But those three entities have a reason to skew numbers for money.

    If you look at the government US Census Bureau figures, there are blips
    here and there (since accident rates depend on many factors), but there is zero evidence of the rise that the lawyers, police & insurance claim.

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents that you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend
    crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are needed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 11 20:52:37 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence is >> not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents that >> you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to handle those distractions should be driving.

    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds (maybe thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and a "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a good driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.

    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good driver"
    and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bad sector@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 16:11:56 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 12/11/24 15:52, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of
    evidence is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these
    accidents that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend
    crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to handle those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds (maybe thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and a "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a good driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.


    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not
    brain-free, argue with that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From super70s@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 17:17:10 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 2024-12-11 20:52:37 +0000, Andrew said:

    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence is >>> not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents that >>> you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend
    crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your world).

    ? You make no sense. Or if that was an attempt at wit you failed.

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to handle those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds (maybe thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and a "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle distractions.

    I only have a 10% "claim free" discount. I've been driving for over 50
    years without being involved in any kind of accident for almost that
    long. My latest premium was $271 for 12 months and that's probably a
    lot cheaper than most are paying (bundled with the house though).

    Oh yeah, I don't own a cellphone and if I did I'd turn it off when on the road.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a good driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Andrew on Thu Dec 12 00:32:24 2024
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 20:52:37 -0000 (UTC), Andrew <[email protected]> wrote: >super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :
    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend
    crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.

    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes >vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion >distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to handle >those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.
    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds (maybe >thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or otherwise. >In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.
    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and a >"good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle distractions.
    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this >conversation.
    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a good >driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.

    troll farm operatives are insiders, only doing what they were born to do,
    i.e. "defending" the universal system within which they are mortally and immortally entrapped, materially, mentally, and spiritually . . (there's
    no getting out, no going back, so there is no possibility of retreat nor advance) . . it's like the bible says, the chasm is fixed and impassable, confined in actual limbo, in a mobius loop of perpetual living and dying,
    what old-timers called the mark of cain or what goes around comes around
    so they continue to troll the usenet newsgroups in vain . . c'est la vie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to bad sector on Thu Dec 12 04:11:08 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    bad sector wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 16:11:56 -0500 :

    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.



    The joke about people who are stupid shouldn't get a licence is partly true
    in that driving has *always* involved (thousands of) distractions.

    Those who can't handle distractions will *always* have accidents.

    The cellphone simply displaced an existing distraction, and, by most
    accounts, the cellphone is not even the biggest distraction while driving.

    But you can *predict* the accident rate would not change with increased cellphone usage simply by knowing that there are plenty of distractions already. Adding one more changes nothing in the whole scheme of things.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not brain-free, argue with that.

    Like you, I've also driven a million miles in my many decades of driving (I started when I was a young teen, well before I could get a license).

    Not one accident.

    Good student discount on insurance for when I was a student (which happened
    to be a very long time given I went to university for graduate degrees).

    Good driver discount too.

    People who have been in an accident have no right to even be in this
    discussion as the fact they couldn't avoid that accident is indicative that they're bad drivers (as you should be able to predict most accidents).

    Anyway, nobody can find a single cite that backs up their religious
    fabrication that cellphones had a huge effect on the accident rate in the
    USA. That's because there was no effect whatsoever from cell phones.

    Zero.

    There are good reasons for that, given cellphones are certainly an "added distraction" to the hundreds (if not thousands!) of existing distractions.

    HINT: People who are too stupid to handle distractions while driving are
    gonna have an accident whether a cellphone is in the car or not.
    --
    Good student. Good driver discount. Over a million miles of driving.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 12 04:09:00 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:17:10 -0600 :

    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes
    vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your world).

    ? You make no sense. Or if that was an attempt at wit you failed.

    Thank you for agreeing that your own argument made absolutely no sense.
    Even to you.

    This is your argument:
    Anecdotally, a red car with blue toys in it hit a tree.
    Therefore, the blue toy caused the accident.
    Hence, we must ban blue toys while driving.

    All I did was switch your own argument around:
    Anecdotally, a red car with blue toys in it hit a tree.
    Therefore, the red car caused the accident.
    Hence, we must ban red cars while driving.

    The point, if you don't get it, is your entire argument is patently absurd.

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are needed. >>
    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to handle >> those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds (maybe >> thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or otherwise. >>
    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and a >> "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle distractions.

    I only have a 10% "claim free" discount. I've been driving for over 50
    years without being involved in any kind of accident for almost that
    long. My latest premium was $271 for 12 months and that's probably a
    lot cheaper than most are paying (bundled with the house though).

    Oh yeah, I don't own a cellphone and if I did I'd turn it off when on the road.

    The cellphone doesn't raise the accident rate for a variety of complex
    reasons, but most people are too uneducated to understand any of them.

    All they see is the scary cellphone, and/or the scary propaganda from
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance

    All of whom make money from cellphone use laws.

    Not one person can find a single cite showing that the accident rate skyrocketed in the USA between the time nobody had a cellphone to the time (almost) everyone had them.

    That's because they made it up.
    It didn't happen.

    It's a myth.
    It's busted.

    The *reason* cellphones don't raise the accident rate are interesting. Especially since everyone agrees they are an extra distraction.

    Why do you think that's the case?

    Do you know why?
    I (think I) do.

    Three reasons, in fact.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 20:11:19 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 2024-12-11 20:09, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:17:10 -0600 :

    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes >>> vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your
    world).

    ? You make no sense. Or if that was an attempt at wit you failed.

    Thank you for agreeing that your own argument made absolutely no sense.
    Even to you.

    This is your argument:
    Anecdotally, a red car with blue toys in it hit a tree.
    Therefore, the blue toy caused the accident.
    Hence, we must ban blue toys while driving.

    All I did was switch your own argument around:
    Anecdotally, a red car with blue toys in it hit a tree.
    Therefore, the red car caused the accident.
    Hence, we must ban red cars while driving.
    The point, if you don't get it, is your entire argument is patently absurd.

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to
    handle
    those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds
    (maybe
    thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or
    otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a
    license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount
    and a
    "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle
    distractions.

    I only have a 10% "claim free" discount. I've been driving for over 50
    years without being involved in any kind of accident for almost that
    long. My latest premium was $271 for 12 months and that's probably a
    lot cheaper than most are paying (bundled with the house though).

    Oh yeah, I don't own a cellphone and if I did I'd turn it off when on
    the road.

    The cellphone doesn't raise the accident rate for a variety of complex reasons, but most people are too uneducated to understand any of them.

    All they see is the scary cellphone, and/or the scary propaganda from
    1. Lawyers
    2. Police
    3. Insurance

    All of whom make money from cellphone use laws.

    Not one person can find a single cite showing that the accident rate skyrocketed in the USA between the time nobody had a cellphone to the time (almost) everyone had them.

    That's because they made it up.
    It didn't happen.

    It's a myth.
    It's busted.

    The *reason* cellphones don't raise the accident rate are interesting. Especially since everyone agrees they are an extra distraction.

    Why do you think that's the case?

    Do you know why?
    I (think I) do.

    Three reasons, in fact.

    BGM: you want to let this bullshit pass?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to badgolferman on Thu Dec 12 05:38:14 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    badgolferman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 21:13:38 -0000 (UTC) :

    I don't believe statistics that tell me distracted driving caused by using cell phones hasn't led to more accidents. I can see with my own eyes how people are extremely dangerous to be around with their erratic driving, excessively large gaps between themselves and the car in front of them, and their eyes pointing down rather than ahead. I don't care what the
    statistics say because as a motorcycle rider I watch like a hawk what
    drivers around me are doing and I make it a point to look inside their cars to ensure their attention is on the road. And then there are the people around them who are affected by the distracted and erratic driving,
    sometimes leading to accidents on their part as they try to avoid or pass
    the distracted driver.

    Then there is the epidemic of people driving with their high beams on in
    town and blinding the rest of us. Unfortunately I can't see if they're looking at their phones because I can't see anything from the glare they're producing.

    We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

    Hi badgolferman,

    This is an interesting topic which I hzve researched deeply over the years. Most people don't research anything; they just guess at everything.

    But not me.
    I don't trust my own intuition; so I check the data.

    Only after I check the data do I form a conclusion based on the evidence. That's what I was taught as an engineer and as a scientist.

    You should also.

    Hence, I converse with you as a normal adult, where I don't need to dumb
    down the message, nor repeat it with you since you own normal comprehensive skills - so you can handle a topic that is complex and nuanced.

    Usenet isn't really the best medium to discuss topics of import which are actually far more complex than most people think - especially since only
    one out of a million people checks their data before assuming a conclusion.

    So I want to start by saying I UNDERSTAND why you think the way you do.

    In fact, many years ago (more than a decade or so), I had long ago already fully and completely understood your point of view, because not only have
    I studied this topic extensively, but yours is the exact same point of view
    of most people. So how could I not be aware of your point of view, right?

    I know what 999,999 out of a million people think.
    And I know why they think it.

    And that's fine.
    But there's a problem with "assuming" things.

    It's just a guess when people "assume" things.
    Just as much a guess as the earth is flat is people "assuming" things.

    Most people guess that gravity is a force.
    But when you check the data, you find out gravity is NOT a force.

    My point is I know and you know and everyone knows what everyone assumes.
    But that assumption is merely a guess.

    Nobody has ever *checked* their assumptions against the reliable data.
    Everyone assumes their guess is 100% right all the time.

    In other words, they feel their intuition is 100% perfect all the time.
    And yet, it's not.

    For thousands of years people assumed the sun revolves around the earth.
    it's a great guess. Most people guessed the same thing.

    But when smart people checked the data, they found out the guess was wrong.
    So rest assured I'm aware that 999,999 out of a million people just guess.

    They assume that (a) cellphones are a distraction, and (b) distractions
    cause accidents, so (c) cellphone distractions must cause accidents to the point that (d) the accident rate should skyrocket when cellphones appeared.

    I have the same intuition as you do, and I have the same intuition that everyone has, so I would have assumed the same thing as you and everyone
    else did had I not had a specific trait which makes me a great scientist.

    Had I not checked the data.

    Guess what I found when I checked the data?
    Yup. The accident rate remained unchanged between the three critical
    periods of (1) before cellphones from 1920 onward, to (2) the meteoric rise
    of cellphone ownership rates, and then (3) the plateau since then.

    Huh?
    WTF?

    What happened?

    Note I never once said that cellphone use doesn't cause accidents.
    Nor have I ever said that cellphones aren't a distraction while driving.

    Nobody disputes that. Least of all me.

    But give me credit for being intelligent. Please. In giving me that credit,
    you need to know I've *researched* this and I found out what appears to be happening which is keeping the well-documented accident rate from rising.

    There are three fundamental reasons, I believe, why there is no evidence whatsoever in the reliable accident rate statistics of the US Census Bureau (which has been keeping reliable accident-rate statistics for a hundred
    years!) of the cellphone accident rate skyrocketing during the period of cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketing.

    Three reasons.

    But nobody here is ready for those reasons since they already assumed that gravity is a force and that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves
    around the earth - simply because they assumed all those things without doublechecking the facts.

    It's only when you doublecheck the facts that you find out there are very interesting reasons (three of them) which explain why the cellphone
    accident rate is essentially unchanged between the three critical periods:
    a. Accident rate in each state *before* cellphones existed
    b. Accident rate during the meteoric rise of cellphone ownership
    c. Accident rate after we reached almost 100% cellphone ownership

    Science isn't intuitive.
    People are often wrong when they assume things sans any reliable data.

    Without data, all assumptions are simply guesses.
    Rest assured, had I not checked my assum;ptions, I too would have thought
    a. Cellphones are a huge distraction
    b. Distractions must be causing accieents
    c. So, I would have "assumed" that the accident rate skyrocketed

    And yet it did not.
    It didn't even change.

    It has been trending downward before, during & after.

    Why is that?
    I (think I) know why.

    But you have to understand the fundamentals before we can talk about why.
    Do you want to discuss those fundamentals first?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Andrew on Wed Dec 11 21:59:27 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 2024-12-11 21:38, Andrew wrote:
    badgolferman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 21:13:38 -0000 (UTC) :

    I don't believe statistics that tell me distracted driving caused by
    using
    cell phones hasn't led to more accidents. I can see with my own eyes how
    people are extremely dangerous to be around with their erratic driving,
    excessively large gaps between themselves and the car in front of
    them, and
    their eyes pointing down rather than ahead. I don't care what the
    statistics say because as a motorcycle rider I watch like a hawk what
    drivers around me are doing and I make it a point to look inside their
    cars
    to ensure their attention is on the road. And then there are the people
    around them who are affected by the distracted and erratic driving,
    sometimes leading to accidents on their part as they try to avoid or pass
    the distracted driver.
    Then there is the epidemic of people driving with their high beams on in
    town and blinding the rest of us. Unfortunately I can't see if they're
    looking at their phones because I can't see anything from the glare
    they're
    producing.
    We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

    Hi badgolferman,

    Are you getting it yet, BGM?

    Continue to disagree...


    This is an interesting topic which I hzve researched deeply over the years. Most people don't research anything; they just guess at everything.

    But not me. I don't trust my own intuition; so I check the data.
    Only after I check the data do I form a conclusion based on the evidence. That's what I was taught as an engineer and as a scientist.

    You should also.

    Hence, I converse with you as a normal adult, where I don't need to dumb
    down the message, nor repeat it with you since you own normal comprehensive skills - so you can handle a topic that is complex and nuanced.

    ...and you will be declared a non-adult.


    Usenet isn't really the best medium to discuss topics of import which are actually far more complex than most people think - especially since only
    one out of a million people checks their data before assuming a conclusion.

    So I want to start by saying I UNDERSTAND why you think the way you do.

    In fact, many years ago (more than a decade or so), I had long ago already fully and completely understood your point of view, because not only
    have I studied this topic extensively, but yours is the exact same point
    of view
    of most people. So how could I not be aware of your point of view, right?

    I know what 999,999 out of a million people think.
    And I know why they think it.

    And that's fine.
    But there's a problem with "assuming" things.

    It's just a guess when people "assume" things.
    Just as much a guess as the earth is flat is people "assuming" things.

    Most people guess that gravity is a force.
    But when you check the data, you find out gravity is NOT a force.

    My point is I know and you know and everyone knows what everyone assumes.
    But that assumption is merely a guess.

    Nobody has ever *checked* their assumptions against the reliable data. Everyone assumes their guess is 100% right all the time.
    In other words, they feel their intuition is 100% perfect all the time.
    And yet, it's not.
    For thousands of years people assumed the sun revolves around the earth.
    it's a great guess. Most people guessed the same thing.

    But when smart people checked the data, they found out the guess was wrong. So rest assured I'm aware that 999,999 out of a million people just guess.

    They assume that (a) cellphones are a distraction, and (b) distractions
    cause accidents, so (c) cellphone distractions must cause accidents to
    the point that (d) the accident rate should skyrocket when cellphones appeared.

    I have the same intuition as you do, and I have the same intuition that everyone has, so I would have assumed the same thing as you and everyone
    else did had I not had a specific trait which makes me a great scientist.

    Had I not checked the data.

    Guess what I found when I checked the data?
    Yup. The accident rate remained unchanged between the three critical
    periods of (1) before cellphones from 1920 onward, to (2) the meteoric
    rise of cellphone ownership rates, and then (3) the plateau since then.

    Huh?
    WTF?

    What happened?

    Note I never once said that cellphone use doesn't cause accidents.
    Nor have I ever said that cellphones aren't a distraction while driving.

    Nobody disputes that. Least of all me.

    But give me credit for being intelligent. Please. In giving me that
    credit, you need to know I've *researched* this and I found out what
    appears to be happening which is keeping the well-documented accident
    rate from rising.
    There are three fundamental reasons, I believe, why there is no evidence whatsoever in the reliable accident rate statistics of the US Census
    Bureau (which has been keeping reliable accident-rate statistics for a hundred years!) of the cellphone accident rate skyrocketing during the
    period of cellphone ownership percentages skyrocketing.

    Three reasons.

    But nobody here is ready for those reasons since they already assumed
    that gravity is a force and that the earth is flat and that the sun
    revolves around the earth - simply because they assumed all those things without doublechecking the facts.

    It's only when you doublecheck the facts that you find out there are
    very interesting reasons (three of them) which explain why the cellphone accident rate is essentially unchanged between the three critical periods:
    a. Accident rate in each state *before* cellphones existed
    b. Accident rate during the meteoric rise of cellphone ownership c.
    Accident rate after we reached almost 100% cellphone ownership

    Science isn't intuitive.
    People are often wrong when they assume things sans any reliable data.

    Without data, all assumptions are simply guesses.
    Rest assured, had I not checked my assum;ptions, I too would have thought
    a. Cellphones are a huge distraction
    b. Distractions must be causing accieents
    c. So, I would have "assumed" that the accident rate skyrocketed

    And yet it did not.
    It didn't even change.

    It has been trending downward before, during & after.

    Why is that?
    I (think I) know why.

    But you have to understand the fundamentals before we can talk about why.
    Do you want to discuss those fundamentals first?

    Well?

    Do you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bad sector@21:1/5 to Andrew on Thu Dec 12 07:28:53 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 12/11/24 23:11, Andrew wrote:
    bad sector wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 16:11:56 -0500 :

    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.



    The joke about people who are stupid shouldn't get a licence is partly true in that driving has *always* involved (thousands of) distractions.

    Those who can't handle distractions will *always* have accidents.

    The cellphone simply displaced an existing distraction, and, by most accounts, the cellphone is not even the biggest distraction while driving.

    But you can *predict* the accident rate would not change with increased cellphone usage simply by knowing that there are plenty of distractions already. Adding one more changes nothing in the whole scheme of things.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not
    brain-free, argue with that.

    Like you, I've also driven a million miles in my many decades of driving (I started when I was a young teen, well before I could get a license).

    Not one accident.

    Good student discount on insurance for when I was a student (which happened to be a very long time given I went to university for graduate degrees).

    Good driver discount too.

    People who have been in an accident have no right to even be in this discussion as the fact they couldn't avoid that accident is indicative that they're bad drivers (as you should be able to predict most accidents).

    Anyway, nobody can find a single cite that backs up their religious fabrication that cellphones had a huge effect on the accident rate in the USA. That's because there was no effect whatsoever from cell phones.

    Zero.

    There are good reasons for that, given cellphones are certainly an "added distraction" to the hundreds (if not thousands!) of existing distractions.

    HINT: People who are too stupid to handle distractions while driving are gonna have an accident whether a cellphone is in the car or not.


    'been here before; defensive driving isn't based on statistics but on suspicion, paranoia and prejudice, thank you very much. I couldn't care
    less whether phones have effect on stats, the roads and conditions have changed, statistics have never stopped a single accident from happening
    and are thus irrelevant.


    --
    All species of mobile phones, media devices, Bluetooth or not, and
    onboard presentation systems beyond what is essential for vehicle
    control should automatically disable themselves within 10 meters of any
    vehicle in motion at any speed. "Hands-Free does NOT mean Brain-Free".
    In the case of approaching vehicles (pedestrian use included) that
    distance should be multiplied (prorated) for every 5km/h of CLOSURE
    speed (i.e. no such device should be operable within 200 meters of any
    vehicle approaching at 100 km/h). Manufacturers of devices in which such
    an automatic lockout feature is missing or can be disabled should first
    pay large fines and then be barred from the jurisdiction market. With
    respect to other road-hog conduct, in addition to intoxication or attention-diverting use of lethal-technology while driving,
    brake-checking and tailgating should also be hanging crimes. Any
    irresponsible vehicle handling should in fact be punished exactly as it
    would be in the case of irresponsible weapons handling (which ALSO needs
    to be beefed up).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to bad sector on Thu Dec 12 09:09:58 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    "bad sector" <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    On 12/11/24 15:52, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of evidence >>>> is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these accidents >>>> that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend
    crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a chain >>> reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm willing to
    bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes
    vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your
    world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to
    handle
    those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds
    (maybe
    thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or
    otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount and
    a
    "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle
    distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this
    conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a good
    driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.


    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good driver"
    and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not brain-free, argue with that.

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same time.
    You can drive, have a discussion and listen to music all at the same time.
    Now, I grant you need to be able to prioritize as needed, but virtually everyone, excluding yourself, can apparently do it very well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bad sector@21:1/5 to Scout on Thu Dec 12 12:05:21 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 12/12/24 10:09, Scout wrote:


    "bad sector" <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    On 12/11/24 15:52, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of
    evidence is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these
    accidents that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to exist. >>>>
    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile
    friend crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight,
    causing a chain reaction and sending herself and others to the
    hospital. I'm willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using Mercedes >>> vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your
    world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to
    handle
    those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds
    (maybe
    thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or
    otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a
    license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount
    and a
    "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle
    distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this
    conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a
    good
    driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one.


    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not
    brain-free, argue with that.

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same
    time. You can drive, have a discussion and listen to music all at the
    same time. Now, I grant you need to be able to prioritize as needed, but virtually everyone, excluding yourself, can apparently do it very well.

    bullshit

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to bad sector on Thu Dec 12 11:09:36 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    "bad sector" <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    On 12/12/24 10:09, Scout wrote:


    "bad sector" <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    On 12/11/24 15:52, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of
    evidence is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these
    accidents that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to
    exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile friend >>>>> crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight, causing a
    chain reaction and sending herself and others to the hospital. I'm
    willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using
    Mercedes
    vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your
    world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to
    handle
    those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds
    (maybe
    thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or
    otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a
    license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount
    and a
    "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle
    distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this
    conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a
    good
    driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one. >>>>

    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not
    brain-free, argue with that.

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same
    time. You can drive, have a discussion and listen to music all at the
    same time. Now, I grant you need to be able to prioritize as needed, but
    virtually everyone, excluding yourself, can apparently do it very well.

    bullshit

    As I said your inability to think/do more than one thing at a time is your problem, and one not shared by almost everyone else.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Allodoxaphobia@21:1/5 to Alan on Thu Dec 12 20:00:41 2024
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:55:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
    On 2024-12-11 09:13, Andrew wrote:
    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed
    to use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via
    hands-free accessories.

    I've yet to learn how this impacts amateur radio operators.

    Jonesy
    --
    Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ.net | linux
    38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | FreeBSD
    * Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Scout on Thu Dec 12 21:14:05 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    Scout wrote on Thu, 12 Dec 2024 11:09:36 -0600 :

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same
    time. You can drive, have a discussion and listen to music all at the
    same time. Now, I grant you need to be able to prioritize as needed, but >>> virtually everyone, excluding yourself, can apparently do it very well.

    bullshit

    As I said your inability to think/do more than one thing at a time is your problem, and one not shared by almost everyone else.

    Actually "Scout" is on to the answer to the mystery of why there is
    absolutely no effect whatsoever on the well-documented USA accident rate between the period before, during and after the meteoric rise in cellphone
    use in vehicles.

    Why has cellphones NOT increased the accident rate?

    There are complex answers for that reason, but I'll just hint at one of the answers which is that cellphones actually make driving safer at times.

    Take the case of routing while driving in an unfamiliar city.
    Which is safer?
    a. Dead reckoning
    b. Paper maps
    c. Cellphones
    (Pick one.)

    Likewise, let's say you just missed a turn and you have no idea how to fix
    that mistake. Which is safer?
    a. Dead reckoning
    b. Paper maps
    c. Cellphones
    (Pick one.)

    Let's say there's traffic ahead so which is safer?
    a. Dead reckoning (with or without FM/AM radio traffic reports)
    b. Paper maps (with or without FM/AM radio traffic reports)
    c. Cellphones

    Notice there are multiple reasons why cellphones did NOT increase the
    accident rate, one of which is that, at times, they actually make driving safer; but that's not the only reason.

    Think about what Scout astutely said, for example:
    1. Distractions (hundreds of them) are part of driving
    2. People too stupid to handle distractions have always had accidents
    3. Distractions are not the major cause of accidents - but they're up there
    4. And of course, a cellphone can certainly be a distraction

    If you're intelligent, you'll instantly understand that people who are intelligent have comprehensive systems in place to handle distractions.

    Adding yet another distractions to a hundred existing distractions changes nothing for people who are intelligent enough to handle distractions.

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to bad sector on Thu Dec 12 21:14:06 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    bad sector wrote on Thu, 12 Dec 2024 07:28:53 -0500 :

    HINT: People who are too stupid to handle distractions while driving are
    gonna have an accident whether a cellphone is in the car or not.

    'been here before; defensive driving isn't based on statistics but on suspicion, paranoia and prejudice, thank you very much. I couldn't care
    less whether phones have effect on stats, the roads and conditions have changed, statistics have never stopped a single accident from happening
    and are thus irrelevant.

    Once you discount science in favor of your own personal religion, nothing
    more can be said (since you own an arbitrary belief system).

    And that's OK.

    Plenty of people are uneducated in math & sciences so they believe whatever
    it is that they want to believe - and that's OK. Most people are stupid.

    Having said it's OK to be stupid like most people are, I prefer to
    understand the math and science involved, instead of just guessing like you
    do.

    And that's OK too.

    As I said, only one in a million is intelligent enough to understand most topics which aren't what they appear to be to the ignorant unwashed masses.

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  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Allodoxaphobia on Thu Dec 12 15:09:12 2024
    On 2024-12-12 12:00, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:55:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
    On 2024-12-11 09:13, Andrew wrote:
    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed
    to use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via >>>> hands-free accessories.

    I've yet to learn how this impacts amateur radio operators.

    Jonesy

    My post wasn't made to any ham radio newsgroup. Sorry

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  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri Dec 13 11:00:01 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:vjfjms$2jgh$[email protected]...
    Scout wrote on Thu, 12 Dec 2024 11:09:36 -0600 :

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same
    time. You can drive, have a discussion and listen to music all at the
    same time. Now, I grant you need to be able to prioritize as needed,
    but virtually everyone, excluding yourself, can apparently do it very
    well.

    bullshit

    As I said your inability to think/do more than one thing at a time is
    your problem, and one not shared by almost everyone else.

    Actually "Scout" is on to the answer to the mystery of why there is absolutely no effect whatsoever on the well-documented USA accident rate between the period before, during and after the meteoric rise in cellphone use in vehicles.

    Then why is hands free not a real issue? Oh, because it's not about multitasking but rather failing to watch what is going on in front of you. Which is something else entirely.
    Further I believe I covered that under your needing to prioritize your multitasking. I mean if what you said had any problems.. then audio systems would never be installed in cars, because according to you someone could
    only drive or listen to music but not both at the same time.

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Scout on Fri Dec 13 18:34:47 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    Scout wrote on Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:00:01 -0600 :

    As I said your inability to think/do more than one thing at a time is
    your problem, and one not shared by almost everyone else.

    Actually "Scout" is on to the answer to the mystery of why there is
    absolutely no effect whatsoever on the well-documented USA accident rate
    between the period before, during and after the meteoric rise in cellphone >> use in vehicles.

    Then why is hands free not a real issue? Oh, because it's not about multitasking but rather failing to watch what is going on in front of you. Which is something else entirely.
    Further I believe I covered that under your needing to prioritize your multitasking. I mean if what you said had any problems.. then audio systems would never be installed in cars, because according to you someone could
    only drive or listen to music but not both at the same time.

    Agree with you that it's all about being able to handle distractions.

    Driving *always* involved handling distractions. Out of hundreds (if not thousands), what's one more distraction going to do if you can handle them?

    Nothing.

    Which is what the accident rate shows.

    What's revealing is that intuition is always wrong.
    a. The sun revolves around the earth. Busted.
    b. Gravity is a force. Busted.
    c. Cellphones raised the accident rate. Busted.

    In this case, everyone (including me!) would intuit that the accident rate
    must have skyrocketed when cellphones were introduced.

    And yet... they didn't.

    For anyone who still claims cellphones raised the accident rate, then just
    tell us how much you feel the accident rate was raised.

    Do they feel it's ten times as many accidents per mile driven?
    Twenty? Fifty? A hundred times the accidents? What?

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  • From Allodoxaphobia@21:1/5 to Alan on Fri Dec 13 19:42:27 2024
    On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 15:09:12 -0800, Alan wrote:
    On 2024-12-12 12:00, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
    On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:55:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
    On 2024-12-11 09:13, Andrew wrote:
    David Yurman wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:51:04 +0100 (CET) :

    Beginning on Jan. 1, 2025, Colorado drivers will no longer be allowed >>>>> to use a mobile electronic device while driving unless they use it via >>>>> hands-free accessories.

    I've yet to learn how this impacts amateur radio operators.

    My post wasn't made to any ham radio newsgroup. Sorry

    Ahh... But I did finally found out. Amateur Radio is exempt as shown
    here:
    https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/default/files/2024a_065_signed.pdf
    on page 3.

    Jonesy

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  • From MGMT 1B@21:1/5 to Klaus Schadenfreude on Wed Dec 18 01:59:20 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, sac.politics
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    On 12/17/2024 5:27 PM, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
    On 12/12/2024 7:09 AM, scooter, the drunken Virginia camper and gutless chickenshit who is frightened to death of Rudy, lied:



    "bad sector" <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    On 12/11/24 15:52, Andrew wrote:
    super70s wrote on Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:38:40 -0600 :

    And for all the morons out there who love to claim "absence of
    evidence is
    not evidence of absence", then simply show evidence of these
    accidents that
    you religiously feel must exist simply because you want them to
    exist.

    I saw in my hometown paper yesterday the sister of an erstwhile
    friend crashed her Mercedes into two other cars at a stoplight,
    causing a chain reaction and sending herself and others to the
    hospital. I'm willing to bet she was on the phone.


    I fully agree with you that there should be a law against using
    Mercedes
    vehicles while driving. It makes perfect sense to do that (in your
    world).

    Anecdotal but I've seen enough anecdotes to believe these laws are
    needed.

    Nobody said that driving doesn't *already* include handling a zillion
    distractions, so we all agree that only people who are too stupid to
    handle
    those distractions should be driving.
    That's why we have a "driving test" for all drivers after all.

    If they're too stupid to handle one more distraction out of hundreds
    (maybe
    thousands) then they shouldn't be driving a vehicle, Mercedes or
    otherwise.

    In reality, there should be a law against giving stupid people a
    license.

    In fact, insurance companies always gave me a "good driver" discount
    and a
    "good student" discount because I'm not too stupid to handle
    distractions.

    If someone has NOT always received both those discounts their entire
    driving life, then they are (by definition) too stupid to be in this
    conversation.

    Moving forward, please append the sig with whether or not you have a
    good
    driver discount and (when you were going to school) a good student one. >>>>

    --
    Not stupid so I can handle distractions, as evidenced by my "good
    driver" and "good student" discounts my whole life.

    Over a million miles without accidents says that hands-free is not
    brain-free, argue with that.

    Easy.. most people can easily think about multiple things at the same
    time.

    You cannot intelligently think of even *one* thing at a time, scooter.

    Did you have to unzip your pants first to count that high again?

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  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 18 08:08:46 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, rec.autos.driving, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone

    [Default] An incel dwarf typed:

    ======================================
    An incel dwarf's
    Pathetic forgery & vandalism of follow ups in an impotent
    attempt to stop being bitch-slapped into next week
    repaired and restored. ======================================


    You cannot intelligently think of even *one* thing at a time, scooter.

    I can only think of one thing-- and that's giving free blow jobs at
    the Jolly Kone Parking Lot!

    Bring Your Cock To the Jolly Kone!!!
    It's The Central Valley's Fellatio Zone!
    If You're On The Left or On The Right
    I'll Suck Your Cock and I Won't Bite!
    I'll Make You Cum and I'll Make you Moan!
    Rudy Canoza Will Make Sure You Get Blown!
    On Your Cock My Skills I'll Hone!
    My Expertise Is Quite Well Known!
    That Talent, You Know, Is Unconcealed!
    I've Sucked Every Cock In Bakersfield!
    Watch Me Work That Hardened Bone!
    I'm Right On Top Of The Skull Fuck Throne�!

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