I recently had cause to create and manage a list of text message
recipients in the Android text message app. Creating the group, adding
people, and naming or renaming the group were all very easy tasks. But
when someone wnated to be removed, I hit a brick wall. I cannot find
any way to remove a recipient from the list.

Is there any way to do this? It seems crazy that you canput people in
but not take people out.

--
Tim Slattery
timslattery <at> utexas <dot> edu

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On Sat, 09 Nov 2024 10:45:48 -0500, Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

I recently had cause to create and manage a list of text message
recipients in the Android text message app. Creating the group, adding >people, and naming or renaming the group were all very easy tasks. But
when someone wnated to be removed, I hit a brick wall. I cannot find
any way to remove a recipient from the list.

Is there any way to do this? It seems crazy that you canput people in
but not take people out.

"the" Android text message app . . . more than one

(using Tor Browser 14.0.1)
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+text+message+app

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Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

I recently had cause to create and manage a list of text message
recipients in the Android text message app. Creating the group, adding people, and naming or renaming the group were all very easy tasks. But
when someone wnated to be removed, I hit a brick wall. I cannot find
any way to remove a recipient from the list.

Is there any way to do this? It seems crazy that you canput people in
but not take people out.

WHICH text messaging app? There are lots of them. Could be the one
bundled on your phone, but you also didn't mention your phone's brand
and model. Could be a different messaging app you installed. Once you
reveal the messaging app, others that use it might be able to tell you
how to edit the list.

Instead of the messaging app, perhaps it is in whichever app you use for contact, like your Phone app, and the messaging app uses the contacts or
groups defined in the other app. For example, on my LG V20 phone using
the bundled Phone app and either the bundled Message app, or the Google Messages app, those get the recipients from the Phone app's contacts and
groups (*). Perhaps you long-press a contact in a group to then use a
newly presented icon bar or the menu to select Delete.

(*) I don't do groups of recipients for texting. Texting isn't my
thing (I'm actually irritated by texters since I prefer calls), so I
rarely text, and only to a single recipient. So, I didn't
experiment by adding members to a group to later have to remove
them, anyway.

Perhaps you have to delete the group, and recreate it, but without the recipient that doesn't want your texts.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> writes:

Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

I recently had cause to create and manage a list of text message
recipients in the Android text message app. Creating the group, adding
people, and naming or renaming the group were all very easy tasks. But
when someone wnated to be removed, I hit a brick wall. I cannot find
any way to remove a recipient from the list.

Is there any way to do this? It seems crazy that you canput people in
but not take people out.

WHICH text messaging app? There are lots of them. Could be the one
bundled on your phone, but you also didn't mention your phone's brand
and model. Could be a different messaging app you installed. Once you reveal the messaging app, others that use it might be able to tell you
how to edit the list.

Instead of the messaging app, perhaps it is in whichever app you use for contact, like your Phone app, and the messaging app uses the contacts or groups defined in the other app. For example, on my LG V20 phone using
the bundled Phone app and either the bundled Message app, or the Google Messages app, those get the recipients from the Phone app's contacts and groups (*). Perhaps you long-press a contact in a group to then use a
newly presented icon bar or the menu to select Delete.

(*) I don't do groups of recipients for texting. Texting isn't my
thing (I'm actually irritated by texters since I prefer calls), so I
rarely text, and only to a single recipient. So, I didn't
experiment by adding members to a group to later have to remove
them, anyway.

Perhaps you have to delete the group, and recreate it, but without the recipient that doesn't want your texts.

Worth noting here that SMS/MMS group texts are really basically
reply-all chains, not like an IRC channel or something with a member
list. In the Google Messages app, it doesn't seem to be possible to
delete a recipient, you just need to make a whole new group.

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W. Greenhouse wrote:

Worth noting here that SMS/MMS group texts are really basically
reply-all chains

MMS messages are, but not SMS, where every message to every recipient is
an individual message.

Google got that "wrong" on early Android messaging apps, by promoting
SMS messages to MMS when there were multiple recipients involved, what
they didn't realise was that there's a USA -> Europe difference where
MMS messages tend to be expensive while SMS messages are often
effectively free.

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Andy Burns <[email protected]> writes:

W. Greenhouse wrote:

Worth noting here that SMS/MMS group texts are really basically
reply-all chains

MMS messages are, but not SMS, where every message to every recipient is an individual message.

Google got that "wrong" on early Android messaging apps, by promoting SMS messages to MMS when there
were multiple recipients involved, what they didn't realise was that there's a USA -> Europe
difference where MMS messages tend to be expensive while SMS messages are often effectively free.

Ah, true, and Google Messages does retain the option to send an
individual SMS to each, in a somewhat buried setting. I haven't looked
to see if that would affect the UI offering you the chance to remove a recipient or not.

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On 10.11.24 14:04, Andy Burns wrote:

W. Greenhouse wrote:

Worth noting here that SMS/MMS group texts are really basically
reply-all chains

MMS messages are, but not SMS, where every message to every recipient is
an individual message.

Google got that "wrong" on early Android messaging apps, by promoting
SMS messages to MMS when there were multiple recipients involved, what
they didn't realise was that there's a USA -> Europe difference where
MMS messages tend to be expensive while SMS messages are often
effectively free.

Most European providers stopped MMS years ago.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

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On 10.11.24 17:41, Jörg Lorenz wrote:

On 10.11.24 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:

Jörg Lorenz wrote:

Most European providers stopped MMS years ago.

All UK networks keep them around, presumably because some mugs are
paying £0.60 each to send them ...

https://www.netzwoche.ch/news/2022-02-10/swisscom-beerdigt-mms

Article in German.

Swisscom and other Swiss providers stopped the antiquated service almost
2 years ago. Other European providers did as well or will soon.

BTW: That was in the pre-iPhone era that I sent my last MMS. That was
before 2007.


--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

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On 10.11.24 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:

Jörg Lorenz wrote:

Most European providers stopped MMS years ago.

All UK networks keep them around, presumably because some mugs are
paying £0.60 each to send them ...

https://www.netzwoche.ch/news/2022-02-10/swisscom-beerdigt-mms

Article in German.

Swisscom and other Swiss providers stopped the antiquated service almost
2 years ago. Other European providers did as well or will soon.


--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

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Jörg Lorenz wrote:

Most European providers stopped MMS years ago.

All UK networks keep them around, presumably because some mugs are
paying £0.60 each to send them ...

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Jörg Lorenz wrote:

BTW: That was in the pre-iPhone era that I sent my last MMS. That was
before 2007.

I think I've only ever sent two of them (perhaps others not by choice
when google were "upgrading" SMS to MMS.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

WHICH text messaging app? There are lots of them. Could be the one
bundled on your phone, but you also didn't mention your phone's brand
and model.

It's the default Android text messaging app. I have a Motorola moto g
power, running Android version 11. I have not installed any other
messaging app.

--
Tim Slattery
timslattery <at> utexas <dot> edu

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Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

WHICH text messaging app? There are lots of them. Could be the one
bundled on your phone, but you also didn't mention your phone's
brand and model.

It's the default Android text messaging app. I have a Motorola moto g
power, running Android version 11. I have not installed any other
messaging app.

https://en-us.support.motorola.com/app/home
Select "Phones", and then "moto g family". 34 phones are listed. 6
have "power" in their product name. There is one called just "moto g
power", and selected it. I did a search on "messages group". None of
the hits dwelled on how to delete a recipient from a group.

There was a link to "moto g power - User Guide" that points to:

https://en-us.support.motorola.com/app/answers/prod_answer_detail/a_id/148927/p/10847/kw/messages%20group

which downloads a PDF file. There is damn little about using their
Messages app, especially no mention of creating or editing groups.
Phone docs have been historically exceedingly sparse on information.

On a whim to look at a different chat app, I hunted on "google messages
delete recipient from group". Google's AI search returned:

To remove someone from a Google Messages group chat, you can do the
following:

1. Select Groups from the apps
2. Click the name of the group
3. Click Members on the left
4. Point to each member you want to remove and check the box next to
their name
5. Click the Remove member button in the top right

I think Google's AI assisted search stole the content from:

https://teacherscollege.screenstepslive.com/a/1345224-remove-members-from-a-google-group

If Motorola's bundled chat app doesn't let you edit groups, you may have
to switch to a different chat app that does, and make the new chat app
the default.

I don't know if the Motorola bundled chat app (Messages) supports RCS.
Some phone makers have dumped their chat app, and moved to the Google
Messages app. However, just having the Google Messages app does not
guarantee you can use RCS. Depends on your cellular carrier. For
example, I have the Google Messages app installed, my phone is at an
Android version later than required for RCS, but I cannot get the app to support RCS, because my carrier doesn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

To remove someone from a Google Messages group chat, you can do the
following:

This has nothing to do with Google, it's the Android SMS messaging
app.

--
Tim Slattery
timslattery <at> utexas <dot> edu

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On 11.11.24 16:06, Tim Slattery wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

To remove someone from a Google Messages group chat, you can do the
following:

This has nothing to do with Google, it's the Android SMS messaging
app.

Guess where it comes from.

--
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

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Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

To remove someone from a Google Messages group chat, you can do the
following:

This has nothing to do with Google, it's the Android SMS messaging
app.

This DOES have something to do with the Google Messages *app* -- should
you decide to install it to replace your current bundled text app on
your phone. Your current and bundled text app has no means to delete a recipient once added to a group. The Google Messages *APP* does.

If you find having to delete the entire group to recreate it sans the
unwanted recipient(s) to be a great nuisance (i.e., delete the group,
and create a new group), you have to change to a different texting app.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.messaging

That is a texting/SMS/MMS/RCS *app*. Whether it can do RCS depends on
your cellular carrier.

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VanguardLH wrote:

This DOES have something to do with the Google Messages app -- should
you decide to install it to replace your current bundled text app on
your phone. Your current and bundled text app has no means to delete a recipient once added to a group. The Google Messages APP does.

Where's that then?

Within Google Messages I can see how to add people to a group, and view
the group details to see who's in it, but under the "obvious" place
[...] per contact there is no option to remove them, only to edit them.

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Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

This DOES have something to do with the Google Messages app -- should
you decide to install it to replace your current bundled text app on
your phone. Your current and bundled text app has no means to delete a
recipient once added to a group. The Google Messages APP does.

Where's that then?

Within Google Messages I can see how to add people to a group, and view
the group details to see who's in it, but under the "obvious" place
[...] per contact there is no option to remove them, only to edit them.

From my reply for Message-ID: <[email protected]>, I cited
what I found online with Google's AI-assisted search. Also,

https://teacherscollege.screenstepslive.com/a/1345224-remove-members-from-a-google-group

looks to be editing your "group" under Google Groups, not of editing a
"group" in the SMS app. The term group gets way overused, so I got
misled to the wrong directions.

While Google Messages is an SMS/RCS texting app, it organizes into conversations. Its "group" is a list of contacts used within a
conversation (aka chat), not a group of contacts, so "group" really
doesn't mean what we think it means. It's not something stored to be
reused later for a new conversation, but a list of recipients for a
particular conversation.

I thought the Google Messages app might grab groups defined in the Phone
app (under its Contacts tab where I can add groups of contacts), but
that test failed. A group defined in the Phone app did not show up in
the Google Messages app to let me select it as a recipient list.

From what I can see and test in the Google Messages app, "group" is a per-conversation object, not something you can reuse for other
conversations withe the same recipients. If you want to keep using that "group", you must not delete the conversation where the "group" was
defined. If you delete the entire conversation, the "group" disappears.

So, do delete a recipient in a "group" means deleting the conversation
to delete the "group" to get rid of the recipient. However, since a
"group" is specific to a conversation, it's not something you can reuse
to define recipients in a new conversation.

I couldn't test the default Messages app (bundled by LG on my phone)
since it bitches that another app (Google Messages) is the default
messaging app. Possibly in that app a "group" would be a list of
contacts that could get reused across multiple and new conversations,
not something defined for just a particular conversation.

Once I'm done texting with someone, it is not very long until I delete a conversation. It isn't relevant, anymore. A conversation about a
grocery delivery is irrelevant after the groceries got delivered. A 2FA
code I need to complete a web site login is a worthless conversation
after I've used the 2FA code to login. My conversations aka chats aka
texts aka SMS message threads don't survive long, so neither would any
"group" defined for the recipients for a particular conversation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ChSDXBed_k

This guy says "group *chat*", not "recipients group". That fits with my testing that shows a "group" only survives as long as the conversation survives. Delete the conversation, and the "group" is gone.

You create a "group" when you create new conversation. You can add
recipients to the group, but not delete. The thread has already been
created. Deleting the conversation gets rid of the "group", because the "group" were the recipients in THAT conversation. You would have to
keep around old conversations to retain the "group". I'm a neat freak,
so conversations never last long on my phone.

You need to use some other SMS app that keeps a group of *contact*
available for reuse in later and new conversations. I found:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=crazy.pradeep.multismssender&hl=en_US&pli=1
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.MSMS&hl=en_US

Never used them, so no idea if it is reliable. Maybe it does what the
OP wants, which is to define a "contacts group" that is reusable in
separate conversations, or after deleting a conversations and later
starting a new conversation where the OP wants to specify the same
collection of recipients. That is, perhaps they create sending lists
reusable for separate conversations.

This were "group" means a list of contacts in the Contacts app (or
Contacts list in the Phone app) versus "group" in SMS messages being a
list of recipients within a conversation.

I don't have a moto g phone to know what features or deficiences it has.
Google Message doesn't save contact groups for later reuse. A "group"
is a list of recipients within a conversation, not a separate reusable
object to use in new conversations.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> writes:

Tim Slattery <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

To remove someone from a Google Messages group chat, you can do the
following:

This has nothing to do with Google, it's the Android SMS messaging
app.

This DOES have something to do with the Google Messages *app* -- should
you decide to install it to replace your current bundled text app on
your phone.

I have a motorola moto g8 power lite, and the default messaging app is
Google Messages, this one:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.messaging

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VanguardLH wrote:

looks to be editing your "group" under Google Groups, not of editing a "group" in the SMS app. The term group gets way overused, so I got
misled to the wrong directions.

Conversation would indeed be a better term for it, still it lets you add participants, I guess if you removed a participant, there's no guarantee
the remaining participants (from your perspective) would notice, so
they would likely continue to include the person you'd cut out ...

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Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

looks to be editing your "group" under Google Groups, not of editing a
"group" in the SMS app. The term group gets way overused, so I got
misled to the wrong directions.

Conversation would indeed be a better term for it, still it lets you add participants, I guess if you removed a participant, there's no guarantee
the remaining participants (from your perspective) would notice, so
they would likely continue to include the person you'd cut out ...

Would recipients of an SMS message to sent to multiple recipients even
see who were the other recipients of that message? That would seem to
violate the privacy of recipients who probably never granted the sender
to include them in a conversation. I would expect a group message to be similar to using BCC in an outbound e-mail, but maybe the CC equivalent
gets used instead.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

looks to be editing your "group" under Google Groups, not of editing a
"group" in the SMS app. The term group gets way overused, so I got
misled to the wrong directions.

Conversation would indeed be a better term for it, still it lets you add participants, I guess if you removed a participant, there's no guarantee the remaining participants (from your perspective) would notice, so
they would likely continue to include the person you'd cut out ...

Would recipients of an SMS message to sent to multiple recipients even
see who were the other recipients of that message? That would seem to violate the privacy of recipients who probably never granted the sender
to include them in a conversation. I would expect a group message to be similar to using BCC in an outbound e-mail, but maybe the CC equivalent
gets used instead.

Well, for example for a real IM (Instant Messaging) platform like
WhatsApp the members of a group can see the number of members and who
they are. The creator/admin of the group can add and delete members and
members can choose to exit the group. So at any time, a member can see
the current number of members and who they are. I do not know if members
get notified if a member is deleted or exits or a member is added. I
assume they get notified, but I don't know.

Bottom line: For real IM platforms, the OP's (Tim Slattery) problem
(of not being able to delete a member) does not exist.

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Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

looks to be editing your "group" under Google Groups, not of editing a >>>> "group" in the SMS app. The term group gets way overused, so I got
misled to the wrong directions.

Conversation would indeed be a better term for it, still it lets you add >>> participants, I guess if you removed a participant, there's no guarantee >>> the remaining participants (from your perspective) would notice, so
they would likely continue to include the person you'd cut out ...

Would recipients of an SMS message to sent to multiple recipients even
see who were the other recipients of that message? That would seem to
violate the privacy of recipients who probably never granted the sender
to include them in a conversation. I would expect a group message to be
similar to using BCC in an outbound e-mail, but maybe the CC equivalent
gets used instead.

Well, for example for a real IM (Instant Messaging) platform like
WhatsApp the members of a group can see the number of members and who
they are. The creator/admin of the group can add and delete members and members can choose to exit the group. So at any time, a member can see
the current number of members and who they are. I do not know if members
get notified if a member is deleted or exits or a member is added. I
assume they get notified, but I don't know.

Bottom line: For real IM platforms, the OP's (Tim Slattery) problem
(of not being able to delete a member) does not exist.

Looks like WhatsApp does text (SMS), chats, and VOIP calls. Maybe
WhatsApp could replace the OP's SMS app, and have even more
functionality.

Does WhatsApp do RCS? Even if it does, the other half of that equation requires a cellular carrier to also support RCS. While the Google
Messages app on my phone supports RCS, my provider (an MVNO) does not.
I thought RCS was supposed to supercede SMS, and an alternative to
WhatsApp, but that doesn't preclude clients from having different
feature sets.

How about XMPP, so WhatsApp users aren't locked into just chatting with
other WhatsApp users? I never got into chatting (P2P), because the chat clients only connect with with other users of the same chat app, and
using XMPP seemed like the Rain Man of chat protocols. Plus, like my
true e-mail address that I protect using reply-able aliases (replies to
aliases don't expose the real e-mail address), I don't like publishing
my phone number which then makes it a target for spammers and
malcontents.

This looks interesting for WhatsApp: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2024/08/20/forget-iphone-16-and-ios-18-whatsapp-update-should-stop-you-using-rcs/

But I wonder if a username for yourself in WhatsApp is only accessible
to other WhatsApp users. Other users won't know by your WhatsApp
username what is your phone number to contact you via SMS or RCS.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]

Looks like WhatsApp does text (SMS), chats, and VOIP calls. Maybe
WhatsApp could replace the OP's SMS app, and have even more
functionality.

AFAIK, WhatsApp does not do SMS or VOIP calls to regular phones
(mobile or landline). It does IM ('chats') and voice/video calls to
other WhatsApp users. So WhatsApp would be an addition, not a
replacement for an Android SMS/MMS app.

Does WhatsApp do RCS? Even if it does, the other half of that equation requires a cellular carrier to also support RCS. While the Google
Messages app on my phone supports RCS, my provider (an MVNO) does not.
I thought RCS was supposed to supercede SMS, and an alternative to
WhatsApp, but that doesn't preclude clients from having different
feature sets.

No WhatsApp doesn't do RCS. And no, RCS is not superceding SMS, it's
an additional functionality. That is, for the US, the rest of the world
is already using WhatsApp for years and years. I never send SMS
messages. I receive SMS messages, the (very) large majority for the
second step in 2SV (if no better method is available).

How about XMPP, so WhatsApp users aren't locked into just chatting with
other WhatsApp users? I never got into chatting (P2P), because the chat clients only connect with with other users of the same chat app, and
using XMPP seemed like the Rain Man of chat protocols. Plus, like my
true e-mail address that I protect using reply-able aliases (replies to aliases don't expose the real e-mail address), I don't like publishing
my phone number which then makes it a target for spammers and
malcontents.

Interoperability between different IM platforms is one of the issues
the EU (Euopean Union) is working on and being a main platform, WhatsApp
will be required to interoperate with other IM platforms. However that
is future, not present.

As to 'publishing' your phone number. We don't have any spammers, etc.
here (The Netherlands), because it's illegal here and it's probably the
same in most of Europe. Phone spamming seems to be mostly a US thing.

Anyway, your WhatsApp 'number' doesn't have to be your main phone
number. Any number you 'own' will do and only needs to be used once in a
while (for verification). The 'phone number' is actually just an
identifier. For example in some cases it can be a landline number and I
used WhatsApp on a SIM-less tablet and can use it on my (SIM-less)
laptop.

This looks interesting for WhatsApp: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2024/08/20/forget-iphone-16-and-ios-18-whatsapp-update-should-stop-you-using-rcs/

But I wonder if a username for yourself in WhatsApp is only accessible
to other WhatsApp users. Other users won't know by your WhatsApp
username what is your phone number to contact you via SMS or RCS.

Interesting development for the concerns you raised. As I said, in our experience it hasn't been a problem, but additional security/privacy
can't hurt.

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Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

Looks like WhatsApp does text (SMS), chats, and VOIP calls. Maybe
WhatsApp could replace the OP's SMS app, and have even more
functionality.

AFAIK, WhatsApp does not do SMS or VOIP calls to regular phones
(mobile or landline). It does IM ('chats') and voice/video calls to
other WhatsApp users. So WhatsApp would be an addition, not a
replacement for an Android SMS/MMS app.

Thanks for the update. Even with the WhatsApp app, I had read that you
still need an SMS app, like to get all those codes due to the 2FA
security theater crap since those are sent via SMS.

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VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d> wrote:

VanguardLH <[email protected]> wrote:

Looks like WhatsApp does text (SMS), chats, and VOIP calls. Maybe
WhatsApp could replace the OP's SMS app, and have even more
functionality.

AFAIK, WhatsApp does not do SMS or VOIP calls to regular phones
(mobile or landline). It does IM ('chats') and voice/video calls to
other WhatsApp users. So WhatsApp would be an addition, not a
replacement for an Android SMS/MMS app.

Thanks for the update. Even with the WhatsApp app, I had read that you
still need an SMS app, like to get all those codes due to the 2FA
security theater crap since those are sent via SMS.

If your 2SV via SMS reference (also) refers to WhatsApp:

2SV via SMS is only used during registration, not during normal use.
And it's optional, another method is to get the 2SV code via an
automated voice call [1]. That's how it done for a landline [2] number
or/and SIM-less device and the same method can be used for a 'normal'
device, i.e. mostly - but not limited to - a smartphone.

[1] 'How to register your account with a phone call' <https://faq.whatsapp.com/796575231429493/?helpref=faq_content&cms_platform=android>
[2] The WhatsApp Help Center implies that landline number are no longer acceptable for regular users, only for WhatsApp Business.
'How to register your phone number' -> 'Registration requirement' <https://faq.whatsapp.com/684051319521343/?helpref=hc_fnav&cms_platform=android>

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