1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. COMP.LANG.LISP

  • Re: Any marginally usable programming language approaches an ill define

    From Kaz Kylheku@21:1/5 to HenHanna on Wed May 29 18:54:33 2024
    XPost: comp.lang.python

    On 2024-05-29, HenHanna <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 5/27/2024 1:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule


    interesting!!!

    Are the Rules 1--9 by Greenspun good too?

    I don't think they exist; it's a joke.

    However, Greenspun's resume of accomplishments is a marvel and
    an inspiration, including many in Lisp.

    A few highlights:

    https://philip.greenspun.com/personal/resume

    "Helped architect, simulate and design prototype of HP's Precision
    Architecture RISC computer. The prototype took two man-years to complete
    and ran at VAX 11/780 speed in June 1983. This architecture became the
    basis of HP's computer product line for 15 years and then became the
    basis for the 64-bit generation of Intel processors."

    https://philip.greenspun.com/personal/resume-list

    "Automatic Layout tools for VLSI, with an emphasis on bus cells and
    automatic implementation of finite state machines (1984 for Symbolics)"

    "Design tools on Symbolics Lisp Machine for RISC CPU implemented in TTL
    (1982-3 for Hewlett Packard)" (in reference to the PA-RISC work).

    "ConSolve system for automating earthmoving, entirely implemented in
    Lisp (1986-1989 for ConSolve), including:

    * Delaunay Triangulation-based terrain model, with C0 and C1 surface
    models.
    * complete environment for earthworks and road design, including
    software to specify design surfaces, calculate costs of
    realizing design surfaces and automatic design tools
    * tree-structured database of zoning laws and automatic testing of
    design compliance
    * hydrology modelling to calculate drainage basins, streams and ridges
    * simulation of earthmoving vehicles
    * automated surveying using vehicles and location systems
    * radio interface to Caterpillar vehicle, including CRCC error detection
    * automatically generated user interface"

    --
    TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
    Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
    Mastodon: @[email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HenHanna@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed May 29 11:39:14 2024
    XPost: comp.lang.python

    On 5/27/2024 1:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
    On 2024-05-27 at 12:37:01 -0700,
    HenHanna via Python-list <[email protected]> wrote:


    On 5/27/2024 7:18 AM, Cor wrote:
    Some entity, AKA "B. Pym" <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org>,
    wrote this mindboggling stuff:
    (selectively-snipped-or-not-p)

    On 12/16/2023, [email protected] wrote:

    Any marginally usable programming language approaches an ill
    defined barely usable re-implementation of half of common-lisp >>>>
    The good news is, it's not Lisp that sucks, but Common Lisp.
    --- Paul Graham

    Just to set the record straight;
    This is not My line.
    I quoted it but don't know who the originator of that remark is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule


    interesting!!!

    Are the Rules 1--9 by Greenspun good too?


    does Greenspun pun ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sebastian Wells@21:1/5 to HenHanna on Mon Jun 24 06:07:04 2024
    XPost: comp.lang.scheme, comp.lang.python

    On Mon, 27 May 2024 12:37:01 -0700, HenHanna wrote:

    On 5/27/2024 7:18 AM, Cor wrote:
    Some entity, AKA "B. Pym" <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org>,
    wrote this mindboggling stuff:
    (selectively-snipped-or-not-p)

    On 12/16/2023, [email protected] wrote:

    Any marginally usable programming language approaches an ill
    defined barely usable re-implementation of half of
    common-lisp

    The good news is, it's not Lisp that sucks, but Common Lisp.
    --- Paul Graham

    Just to set the record straight;
    This is not My line.
    I quoted it but don't know who the originator of that remark is.

    Cor



    a few years ago... when i started learning Python...

    it was so exciting...

    Every day i thought...

    --- THis is Lisp in a thin-disguise ... SO Everyone gets it now.
    Everyone is a Lisper now.

    Except it's not Lisp in a thin disguise, but rather an anti-Lisp,
    which copies just enough from Lisp to be "marginally usable" as
    your quote puts it, and then addresses certain specific use cases
    by adding syntactic or semantic special cases, just to stop people
    in the early days from listening to Lispers' calls for macros to
    be added so that Python's weaknesses could be addressed in general
    instead of only in certain special cases.

    In some ways, Python is aggressively anti-Lispy, in a way that
    cannot be reconciled. Just one example: if you've built up a
    list comprehension and suddenly you need to reference the
    result of the same computation twice, now you need to turn
    the whole thing into a for loop because you can't introduce
    variables in the middle of an expression. This is supposedly
    "good" because there's some species of idiot who can't
    understand expressions, and all Python code must be understandable
    to these specific idiots. But it's okay for Python to have
    weird special-case behavior that no-one would ever guess is
    happening until they're debugging some weird problem in a big
    open-source library and see it first hand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Sebastian Wells on Mon Jun 24 07:54:42 2024
    XPost: comp.lang.scheme

    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 06:07:04 -0000 (UTC), Sebastian Wells wrote:

    In some ways, Python is aggressively anti-Lispy, in a way that cannot be reconciled. Just one example: if you've built up a list comprehension
    and suddenly you need to reference the result of the same computation
    twice, now you need to turn the whole thing into a for loop because you
    can't introduce variables in the middle of an expression.

    Sure you can.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)