• HTTP server benchmarking/load testing in Python

    From Dino@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 10:53:34 2023
    Hello, I could use something like Apache ab in Python ( https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/programs/ab.html ).

    The reason why ab doesn't quite cut it for me is that I need to define a
    pool of HTTP requests and I want the tool to run those (as opposed to
    running the same request over and over again)

    Does such a marvel exist?

    Thinking about it, it doesn't necessarily need to be Python, but I guess
    I would have a chance to tweak things if it was.

    Thanks

    Dino

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Dino on Wed Jan 25 13:21:23 2023
    On 1/25/2023 10:53 AM, Dino wrote:

    Hello, I could use something like Apache ab in Python ( https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/programs/ab.html ).

    The reason why ab doesn't quite cut it for me is that I need to define a
    pool of HTTP requests and I want the tool to run those (as opposed to
    running the same request over and over again)

    Does such a marvel exist?

    Thinking about it, it doesn't necessarily need to be Python, but I guess
    I would have a chance to tweak things if it was.


    I actually have a Python program that does exactly this. The intention
    was to simulate a large number of independent users hitting a particular
    web site as rapidly as possible, so see what the typical throughput is.
    The program is somewhat specialized in the nature of the requests, but
    the method is easy enough to implement.

    The requests are composed from a pool of 300 pieces, and for each
    request, four pieces are selected randomly with replacement and combined
    to form the entire request. The idea here is to try to minimize caching,
    so as to better assess the throughput for random queries.

    The program runs a configurable number of threads. Each thread tries to maintain an average query rate, but you have to throttle them to prevent
    an exponential buildup of the request queue. If you run the program,
    the server machine (usually the same as the querying machine) is likely
    to get very hot - it's can be quite a stress test - and you want to
    monitor the CPU temperatures just in case.

    I can't share the actual code for copyright reasons, but the above
    description should be helpful. The actual code is not very complicated
    nor hard to develop.

    I also have a version that uses async techniques instead of threads. To
    give a feel for using a program like this, I think I can show the
    '__main__' bit:

    if __name__ == '__main__':
    handleCmdLine()

    # Warm up [redacted] in case it is not ready to get flooded with
    queries
    for n in range(WARMUP_REPS):
    HTTPClient(HOST, setpath(), True)
    asyncore.loop()

    # Warmup done, reset hit counter
    reps = 0

    # And away we go ...
    for n in range(NUMCLIENTS):
    HTTPClient(HOST, setpath())

    start = clock()
    asyncore.loop(timeout=50)
    now = clock()

    sys.stderr.write('\n')
    reps_per_sec = reps / (now - start)
    print ('%0.1f hits/sec' % reps_per_sec)


    There are also some polling-based systems available that do a similar
    job. I don't remember the name of the one I tried a few years ago. It
    ran a server to run the queries and reported the results via your browser.

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  • From orzodk@21:1/5 to Dino on Wed Jan 25 11:33:38 2023
    Dino <[email protected]> writes:

    Hello, I could use something like Apache ab in Python ( https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/programs/ab.html ).

    The reason why ab doesn't quite cut it for me is that I need to define
    a pool of HTTP requests and I want the tool to run those (as opposed
    to running the same request over and over again)

    Does such a marvel exist?

    Thinking about it, it doesn't necessarily need to be Python, but I
    guess I would have a chance to tweak things if it was.

    Thanks

    Dino


    I have used locust with success in the past.

    https://locust.io

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  • From Dino@21:1/5 to orzodk on Wed Jan 25 15:27:51 2023
    On 1/25/2023 1:33 PM, orzodk wrote:


    I have used locust with success in the past.

    https://locust.io

    First impression, exactly what I need. Thank you Orzo!

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  • From Dino@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Wed Jan 25 15:29:41 2023
    On 1/25/2023 1:21 PM, Thomas Passin wrote:


    I actually have a Python program that does exactly this.

    Thank you, Thomas. I'll check out Locust, mentioned by Orzodk, as it
    looks like a mature library that appears to do exactly what I was hoping.

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Dino on Wed Jan 25 16:30:56 2023
    On 1/25/2023 3:29 PM, Dino wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 1:21 PM, Thomas Passin wrote:


    I actually have a Python program that does exactly this.

    Thank you, Thomas. I'll check out Locust, mentioned by Orzodk, as it
    looks like a mature library that appears to do exactly what I was hoping.

    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you hit
    the server with as many requests as it can handle.

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  • From Peter J. Holzer@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Thu Jan 26 01:38:27 2023
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.

    hp

    --
    _ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
    |_|_) | |
    | | | [email protected] | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
    __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Peter J. Holzer on Wed Jan 25 20:04:32 2023
    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful. We don't know what hardware the OP is
    using. And it's not servicing the requests per se that's the issue,
    it's the heavy computing load that has to be done for each request. The
    CPU is generally pegged at 100% for most or all of the test.

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  • From Chris Angelico@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Thu Jan 26 12:36:16 2023
    On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 12:06, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful. We don't know what hardware the OP is using. And it's not servicing the requests per se that's the issue,
    it's the heavy computing load that has to be done for each request. The
    CPU is generally pegged at 100% for most or all of the test.

    If you have to worry about thermals because of CPU load, then worry
    about thermals because of CPU load. The HTTP request testing is
    completely separate.

    Load testing means putting a system under load. I'm not sure why you'd
    be concerned about one specific possible consequence, rather than, I
    dunno, just put the system under load and see how it performs?

    ChrisA

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  • From Dino@21:1/5 to Dino on Wed Jan 25 23:23:17 2023
    On 1/25/2023 3:27 PM, Dino wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 1:33 PM, orzodk wrote:

    I have used locust with success in the past.

    https://locust.io

    First impression, exactly what I need. Thank you Orzo!

    the more I learn about Locust and I tinker with it, the more I love it.
    Thanks again.

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Chris Angelico on Wed Jan 25 23:02:33 2023
    On 1/25/2023 8:36 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 12:06, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful. We don't know what hardware the OP is
    using. And it's not servicing the requests per se that's the issue,
    it's the heavy computing load that has to be done for each request. The
    CPU is generally pegged at 100% for most or all of the test.

    If you have to worry about thermals because of CPU load, then worry
    about thermals because of CPU load. The HTTP request testing is
    completely separate.

    Load testing means putting a system under load. I'm not sure why you'd
    be concerned about one specific possible consequence, rather than, I
    dunno, just put the system under load and see how it performs?

    This is not that hard, folks! I needed to know the throughput of this
    system if it were hit with a great many queries at once, as if it were a
    busy help desk, for instance. The intent is not to bring the server to
    its knees as a load test for the server, it's to measure the maximum
    throughput for independent queries. It happens that each query takes a
    lot of processing, so the system is not IO bound, it's CPU bound. The
    result is a large CPU load and a large amount of heat generated.

    "just put the system under load and see how it performs" This is exactly
    what was happening, but not in the service of stressing the computer,
    but in finding the throughput for this particular Tomcat app with representative queries. As a byproduct, I noticed very high CPU
    temperatures, which probably wouldn't have occurred in a datacenter
    server with much better cooling. I didn't care about that except for protecting my own laptop.

    And this is way OT for the OP's question.

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  • From Dino@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Thu Jan 26 08:33:45 2023
    On 1/25/2023 4:30 PM, Thomas Passin wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 3:29 PM, Dino wrote:
    Great!  Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you hit
    the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Noted. Thank you.

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Dino on Thu Jan 26 09:06:51 2023
    On 1/25/2023 11:23 PM, Dino wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 3:27 PM, Dino wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 1:33 PM, orzodk wrote:

    I have used locust with success in the past.

    https://locust.io

    First impression, exactly what I need. Thank you Orzo!

    the more I learn about Locust and I tinker with it, the more I love it. Thanks again.

    That's the one I was trying to remember! I think it was in in its early
    days when I tried it out.

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  • From Grant Edwards@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Thu Jan 26 08:02:11 2023
    On 2023-01-26, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful.

    A properly designed laptop with a non-broken OS will not overheat
    regardless of the computing load you throw at it. The fan might get
    annoying loud, but if it overheats either your hardware or OS needs
    to be fixed.

    --
    Grant

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  • From Benjamin Schollnick@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 11:13:32 2023
    On Jan 26, 2023, at 11:02 AM, Grant Edwards <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2023-01-26, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful.

    A properly designed laptop with a non-broken OS will not overheat
    regardless of the computing load you throw at it. The fan might get
    annoying loud, but if it overheats either your hardware or OS needs
    to be fixed.

    Exactly.

    But what he might be thinking about is Thermal Throttling, which I keep seeing people attribute
    to overheating….

    Overheating is not thermal throttling, it’s the OS and CPU protecting themselves from overheating.
    Usually because the manufacturer didn’t add enough cooling to keep the system cool enough with a continuous load. (Which to be honest, almost no laptop designers do, because they assuming you are going to be having a spiky load instead…

    - Benjamin

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  • From Chris Angelico@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Fri Jan 27 03:41:18 2023
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.

    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT
    overheating. I would accept "the CPU thermally throttled to the point
    where the test was non-indicative" as a form of overheating, though
    then the warning should be "be aware that, if your web server is
    CPU-limited, this test may result in hard-to-interpret numbers due to
    requests per second varying with the change in CPU temperature", which
    isn't nearly as punchy.

    But unless you have a system where the heat sink isn't attached to the
    CPU properly, I'd be very surprised if you were able to actually
    damage your CPU this way. Maybe you could reduce the lifetime that way
    (the same way that crypto mining can shorten the lifespan of a GPU),
    but it shouldn't cause any sort of immediate damage. Even on a laptop.

    Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

    ChrisA

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Grant Edwards on Thu Jan 26 11:32:02 2023
    On 1/26/2023 11:02 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2023-01-26, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/25/2023 7:38 PM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:30:56 -0500, Thomas Passin wrote:
    Great! Don't forget what I said about potential overheating if you
    hit the server with as many requests as it can handle.

    Frankly, if you can overheat a server by hitting it with HTTP requests,
    get better hardware and/or put it into a place with better airflow.


    Frankly, if you have a server-grade machine then well and good but if
    you are running a nice quiet consumer grade laptop - my development
    machine - you need to be careful.

    A properly designed laptop with a non-broken OS will not overheat
    regardless of the computing load you throw at it. The fan might get
    annoying loud, but if it overheats either your hardware or OS needs
    to be fixed.

    A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program. They have been different brands, different
    CPUs, different levels of noisy fans. I don't know how I would find one
    of your "properly designed laptops with a non-broken OS", or what could
    be done to fix it. Maybe a high-end gaming machine... which I don't
    wish to invest in or hear the fan noise from.

    Anyway, the point was to warn other people - who probably also wouldn't
    have a "properly designed laptop with a non-broken OS" - that they
    should keep an eye on their CPU core temperatures. In my experience,
    that's a real concern, whether or not it "should not" be an issue.

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  • From Grant Edwards@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Thu Jan 26 09:14:24 2023
    On 2023-01-26, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/26/2023 11:02 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:

    [...]

    A properly designed laptop with a non-broken OS will not overheat
    regardless of the computing load you throw at it. The fan might get
    annoying loud, but if it overheats either your hardware or OS needs
    to be fixed.

    A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.

    You mean they actually fail/crash?

    Or they just throttle the fans up and the CPU down to keep the core
    temperature within limits?

    --
    Grant

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Chris Angelico on Thu Jan 26 12:29:50 2023
    On 1/26/2023 11:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.

    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT
    overheating.

    CPU core temperatures up to 95 deg C and rising rapidly, as reported by
    a number of utilities including NZXT and CoreTemp. Max junction
    temperature is given as 100 deg C, and I don't want to risk reducing the lifetime of my CPU.

    Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might
    not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to
    make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil
    pressure warning active, either.

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  • From Stefan Ram@21:1/5 to Grant Edwards on Thu Jan 26 18:46:28 2023
    Grant Edwards <[email protected]> writes:
    Or they just throttle the fans up and the CPU down to keep the core >temperature within limits?

    I always took it for granted (no pun intended) that my system
    behaves this way. Sometimes, however, when I let a process that
    uses a lot of CPU run through the night, I activate "power save"
    settings which I have configured to throttle the CPU to an even
    lower state to avoid to even get close to the limit where the
    system throttling sets in.

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  • From Chris Angelico@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Fri Jan 27 04:57:58 2023
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 04:31, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/26/2023 11:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.

    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT overheating.

    CPU core temperatures up to 95 deg C and rising rapidly, as reported by
    a number of utilities including NZXT and CoreTemp. Max junction
    temperature is given as 100 deg C, and I don't want to risk reducing the lifetime of my CPU.

    Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might
    not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to
    make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil pressure warning active, either.

    Did you get a warning, or did you just decide to stop the test?

    Did you continue the test and see what would happen?

    Did you, when the temperature got up to 95°, check what the CPU's
    clock frequency was? The easiest way to recognize thermal throttling
    is a reduction in frequency while at 100% utilization.

    Or did you just assume that, with a mere five degree buffer and your
    own personal analysis, that the CPU was just seconds away from total destruction?

    ChrisA

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Chris Angelico on Thu Jan 26 14:53:07 2023
    On 1/26/2023 12:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 04:31, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/26/2023 11:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number >>>> of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.

    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT
    overheating.

    CPU core temperatures up to 95 deg C and rising rapidly, as reported by
    a number of utilities including NZXT and CoreTemp. Max junction
    temperature is given as 100 deg C, and I don't want to risk reducing the
    lifetime of my CPU.

    Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might
    not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to
    make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil
    pressure warning active, either.

    Did you get a warning, or did you just decide to stop the test?

    (At least) one of the utilities, I forget which one, did show the
    temperature in a danger zone.

    Did you continue the test and see what would happen?

    No, why would I? Would you go up to the edge of a cliff, past the
    warning signs, and when the ground started to crumble take another step
    to see if it would really collapse?

    Did you, when the temperature got up to 95°, check what the CPU's
    clock frequency was? The easiest way to recognize thermal throttling
    is a reduction in frequency while at 100% utilization.

    No, there was no point. Maybe it would have throttled, maybe no damage
    would have occurred. But doing so would not have accomplished anything,
    since I already had the throughput numbers I needed and the purpose of
    the test was not to see how hard I could drive the system before
    hardware failure. I'll leave that to Tom's Hardware or some gamers' site.

    Or did you just assume that, with a mere five degree buffer and your
    own personal analysis, that the CPU was just seconds away from total destruction?

    To quote myself from my last message:

    "Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might
    not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to
    make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil
    pressure warning active, either."

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  • From Chris Angelico@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Fri Jan 27 09:00:32 2023
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 06:54, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    Did you get a warning, or did you just decide to stop the test?

    (At least) one of the utilities, I forget which one, did show the
    temperature in a danger zone.

    I'm very curious as to which utility, and on what basis it called it
    "danger". Notably, whether there's any sort of actual manufacturer
    threshold that that was based on.

    Personally? Very dubious. Your entire premise is "five degrees MUST be
    a problem", without any visible basis.

    ChrisA

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  • From Barry@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 23:39:24 2023
    On 26 Jan 2023, at 17:32, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/26/2023 11:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote: >>> A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number
    of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.
    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT
    overheating.

    CPU core temperatures up to 95 deg C and rising rapidly, as reported by a number of utilities including NZXT and CoreTemp. Max junction temperature is given as 100 deg C, and I don't want to risk reducing the lifetime of my CPU.

    Silicon junctions melt something like 400C ish not 100C.
    The max you see is the operating temp of the CPU.

    For intel CPU if you go beyond what the slow clocking can deal with the CPU turns itself off to prevent damage.

    Intel did this to stop people asking for replacement parts when there cooling was at fault.

    Barry


    Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil pressure warning active, either.
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Chris Angelico on Thu Jan 26 22:10:34 2023
    On 1/26/2023 5:00 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 06:54, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    Did you get a warning, or did you just decide to stop the test?

    (At least) one of the utilities, I forget which one, did show the
    temperature in a danger zone.

    I'm very curious as to which utility, and on what basis it called it "danger". Notably, whether there's any sort of actual manufacturer
    threshold that that was based on.

    1. we're talking maybe a dozen years ago, I don't remember every detail
    about wordings. Coretemp e.g., gives clear warnings (though at what I
    think are lower temperatures than necessary).

    2. "What is Tjunction max temperature?"
    Tjunction max is the maximum thermal junction temperature that a
    processor will allow prior to using internal thermal control mechanisms
    to reduce power and limit temperature. Activation of the processor's
    thermal control system may cause performance loss as the processor
    typically reduces frequency and power to prevent overheating. The
    maximum junction temperature limit varies per product and usually is
    between 100°C-110°C."

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html

    The utilities I used always stated a 100 deg limit for Tj.

    3. "Is it bad if my processor frequently approaches or reaches its
    maximum temperature?

    Not necessarily. Many Intel® processors make use of Intel® Turbo Boost Technology, which allows them to operate at very high frequency for a
    short amount of time. When the processor is operating at or near its
    maximum frequency it's possible for the temperature to climb very
    rapidly and quickly reach its maximum temperature. In sustained
    workloads, it's possible the processor will operate at or near its
    maximum temperature limit. Being at maximum temperature while running a workload isn't necessarily cause for concern. Intel processors
    constantly monitor their temperature and can very rapidly adjust their frequency and power consumption to prevent overheating and damage."

    (same source)

    But automatic throttling wasn't common back when I first noticed the
    heating issue.

    Personally? Very dubious. Your entire premise is "five degrees MUST be
    a problem", without any visible basis.

    Bridges are built with 150 - 200 % strength margin. This doesn't mean
    you should deliberately overload one.

    Heat is the enemy of electronics - a very old lesson. Tj =~ 100 deg C
    for CPUs, a familiar figure.

    My premise, to use your word, is not what you say. It is to avoid
    excessive heat if at all possible, and if the manufacturer says the max junction temperature is 100 deg, I'm going to avoid approaching 100 deg
    if possible - or to minimize the stay there. Most chemical effects are exponentially sensitive to temperature and problems with semiconductors
    are likely to be chemical - remember, e.g., the purple plague? A
    chemical problem.

    So yes, checking with HWiNFO, my current system is throttling and power limiting during this particular test. That's good. And I'm still going
    to stay away from the highest temperatures when possible.

    Nuff said!

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  • From Chris Angelico@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Fri Jan 27 14:32:00 2023
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 14:21, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    2. "What is Tjunction max temperature?"
    Tjunction max is the maximum thermal junction temperature that a
    processor will allow prior to using internal thermal control mechanisms
    to reduce power and limit temperature. Activation of the processor's
    thermal control system may cause performance loss as the processor
    typically reduces frequency and power to prevent overheating. The
    maximum junction temperature limit varies per product and usually is
    between 100°C-110°C."

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html

    The utilities I used always stated a 100 deg limit for Tj.


    Yeah, so "maximum" is "before performance loss", not "before damage".

    ChrisA

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Chris Angelico on Thu Jan 26 23:21:31 2023
    On 1/26/2023 10:32 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 14:21, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:
    2. "What is Tjunction max temperature?"
    Tjunction max is the maximum thermal junction temperature that a
    processor will allow prior to using internal thermal control mechanisms
    to reduce power and limit temperature. Activation of the processor's
    thermal control system may cause performance loss as the processor
    typically reduces frequency and power to prevent overheating. The
    maximum junction temperature limit varies per product and usually is
    between 100°C-110°C."

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html

    The utilities I used always stated a 100 deg limit for Tj.


    Yeah, so "maximum" is "before performance loss", not "before damage".

    Yeah, so a dozen years ago, when I first noticed the matter, most
    computers didn't have throttling and power reduction, so I got
    sensitized to it. Better safe than sorry. Airliners have safeguards
    against stalling, but it's a lot better not to try to stall them anyway (speaking as a (non-airline) pilot).

    Let's give this a rest, shall we?

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Barry on Thu Jan 26 20:32:53 2023
    On 1/26/2023 6:39 PM, Barry wrote:


    On 26 Jan 2023, at 17:32, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 1/26/2023 11:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 at 03:34, Thomas Passin <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> A nice theory but nothing to do with the real world. I've had a number >>>> of laptops that overheat (or would, if I let test program continue)
    running this test program.
    Define "overheat". If all you're saying is "the fan began to whine and
    I got annoyed so I shut off the program", that is absolutely NOT
    overheating.

    CPU core temperatures up to 95 deg C and rising rapidly, as reported by a number of utilities including NZXT and CoreTemp. Max junction temperature is given as 100 deg C, and I don't want to risk reducing the lifetime of my CPU.

    Silicon junctions melt something like 400C ish not 100C.
    The max you see is the operating temp of the CPU.

    Of course I know the junction isn't going to melt at 100 deg C. We're
    not talking low temperature solder here!

    For intel CPU if you go beyond what the slow clocking can deal with the CPU turns itself off to prevent damage.

    Intel did this to stop people asking for replacement parts when there cooling was at fault.

    Barry


    Maybe five or ten minutes at or above 100 deg C every few months might not make a noticeable lifetime difference, who knows? I don't want to make a habit of it. I wouldn't drive my car very long with a low oil pressure warning active, either.
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



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