Am 08.05.23 um 18:54 schrieb nemethi:

I have just filed a ticket containing an implementation proposal for replacing the old-fashioned, ugly Motif-style indicators for the ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton widgets of the "default" theme
with modern-looking and fully scaling-aware SVG images.  See

    https://core.tcl-lang.org/tk/tktview/5009984635

The ticket contains also three screenshots demonstrating the nice,
modern look of the new indicators.

The implementation is contained in the fossil branch "new-default-indicators", which I would like to merge into trunk so it
can go into Tk 8.7b1.

Comments in this newsgroup or on the above ticket page are welcome.

Csaba

Many thanks again for the positive feedback! The improvements proposed
in the ticket are now committed into trunk and hence they will go into
Tk 8.7b1.

--
Csaba Nemethi https://www.nemethi.de mailto:[email protected]

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On 5/9/2023 11:35 AM, nemethi wrote:

Am 09.05.23 um 20:05 schrieb saitology9:

On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, nemethi wrote:

I have just filed a ticket containing an implementation proposal for replacing the old-fashioned, ugly Motif-style indicators for the ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton widgets of the "default" theme with modern-looking and fully scaling-aware SVG

images.  See

     https://core.tcl-lang.org/tk/tktview/5009984635

The ticket contains also three screenshots demonstrating the nice, modern look of the new indicators.

The implementation is contained in the fossil branch "new-default-indicators", which I would like to merge into trunk so it can go into Tk 8.7b1.

Comments in this newsgroup or on the above ticket page are welcome.

Csaba

Looks great! It gets my vote.


By the way, if you could also add a screenshot of the original/Motif-style version, the difference would be easy to see by anyone.

Thanks a lot for your positive feedback and your suggestion!  I have just attached a screenshot showing the old Motif-style widgets.

I too think that the indicator for a checked box should be a check-mark.
And also that a non-checked box indicated by a white filled square.

That makes it clear that the box is unchecked. Paper forms with
check-boxes look like that.

However, the unset state, with a - sign with a dark colored background
wasn't so obvious to me. I think I might prefer using a black - against a
white background. Some windows programs I've seen use a small rectangle
for an unset checkbox.

If I were designing this, I might even try a small ? to indicate the unknown
or unset state against a white background.

But either way, definitely an improvement.

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Am 14.05.23 um 03:55 schrieb et99:

On 5/9/2023 11:35 AM, nemethi wrote:

Am 09.05.23 um 20:05 schrieb saitology9:

On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, nemethi wrote:

I have just filed a ticket containing an implementation proposal for
replacing the old-fashioned, ugly Motif-style indicators for the
ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton widgets of the "default" theme
with modern-looking and fully scaling-aware SVG images.  See

     https://core.tcl-lang.org/tk/tktview/5009984635

The ticket contains also three screenshots demonstrating the nice,
modern look of the new indicators.

The implementation is contained in the fossil branch
"new-default-indicators", which I would like to merge into trunk so
it can go into Tk 8.7b1.

Comments in this newsgroup or on the above ticket page are welcome.

Csaba

Looks great! It gets my vote.


By the way, if you could also add a screenshot of the
original/Motif-style version, the difference would be easy to see by
anyone.

Thanks a lot for your positive feedback and your suggestion!  I have
just attached a screenshot showing the old Motif-style widgets.

I too think that the indicator for a checked box should be a check-mark.
And also that a non-checked box indicated by a white filled square.

That makes it clear that the box is unchecked. Paper forms with
check-boxes look like that.

However, the unset state, with a - sign with a dark colored background
wasn't so obvious to me. I think I might prefer using a black - against a white background. Some windows programs I've seen use a small rectangle
for an unset checkbox.

If I were designing this, I might even try a small ? to indicate the
unknown
or unset state against a white background.

But either way, definitely an improvement.

The way a theme indicates that one of its ttk::checkbutton widgets is in
the alternate (tri-state) state is theme-specific. For example, the alt
and clam themes just change the background color of the box (and keep
the check mark if the checkbutton was previously in selected state). The
aqua themes draws a white dash on blue background, and the vista theme
does the same on Windows 11 (on earlier Windows versions it used to draw
a black square on white background). (The implementation of the vista
theme makes use of the Microsoft Visual Styles API, whose drawing engine
on Windows 11 draws a white dash rather than a black square). Most
modern Gtk themes also display the alternate state of their native
checkbuttons like the Ttk themes aqua and vista.

My main goal with providing a new implementation of the ttk::checkbutton
and ttk::radiobutton indicators was to replace their old Motif-style
look with a modern one, and the use of a white dash for the alternate
state seems to have become the standard both in Ttk and on the modern
desktops.

--
Csaba Nemethi https://www.nemethi.de mailto:[email protected]

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On 5/14/2023 5:13 AM, nemethi wrote:

Am 14.05.23 um 03:55 schrieb et99:

On 5/9/2023 11:35 AM, nemethi wrote:

Am 09.05.23 um 20:05 schrieb saitology9:

On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, nemethi wrote:

I have just filed a ticket containing an implementation proposal for replacing the old-fashioned, ugly Motif-style indicators for the ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton widgets of the "default" theme with modern-looking and fully scaling-aware

SVG images.  See

     https://core.tcl-lang.org/tk/tktview/5009984635

The ticket contains also three screenshots demonstrating the nice, modern look of the new indicators.

The implementation is contained in the fossil branch "new-default-indicators", which I would like to merge into trunk so it can go into Tk 8.7b1.

Comments in this newsgroup or on the above ticket page are welcome.

Csaba

Looks great! It gets my vote.


By the way, if you could also add a screenshot of the original/Motif-style version, the difference would be easy to see by anyone.

Thanks a lot for your positive feedback and your suggestion!  I have just attached a screenshot showing the old Motif-style widgets.

I too think that the indicator for a checked box should be a check-mark.
And also that a non-checked box indicated by a white filled square.

That makes it clear that the box is unchecked. Paper forms with
check-boxes look like that.

However, the unset state, with a - sign with a dark colored background
wasn't so obvious to me. I think I might prefer using a black - against a
white background. Some windows programs I've seen use a small rectangle
for an unset checkbox.

If I were designing this, I might even try a small ? to indicate the unknown >> or unset state against a white background.

But either way, definitely an improvement.

The way a theme indicates that one of its ttk::checkbutton widgets is in the alternate (tri-state) state is theme-specific.  For example, the alt and clam themes just change the background color of the box (and keep the check mark if the checkbutton

was previously in selected state). The aqua themes draws a white dash on blue background, and the vista theme does the same on Windows 11 (on earlier Windows versions it used to draw a black square on white background).  (The implementation of the vista
theme makes use of the Microsoft Visual Styles API, whose drawing engine on Windows 11 draws a white dash rather than a black square). Most modern Gtk themes also display the alternate state of their native checkbuttons like the Ttk themes aqua and vista.

My main goal with providing a new implementation of the ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton indicators was to replace their old Motif-style look with a modern one, and the use of a white dash for the alternate state seems to have become the standard

both in Ttk and on the modern desktops.


So, windows 11 changes this. That figures. Wasn't windows 10 supposed to be the last version of windows :)

Yes, I don't like the alt and clam approach. Very confusing.

On windows, I've only seen the little black square once in a text editor preference setting, and I don't even remember what it was used for. So, it is likely to be rare.

But that's when a self-explanatory ? might have been useful.

That was my thinking.

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* et99 <[email protected]>
| On 5/14/2023 5:13 AM, nemethi wrote:
| > The way a theme indicates that one of its ttk::checkbutton widgets
| > is in the alternate (tri-state) state is theme-specific.  For
| > example, the alt and clam themes just change the background color of
| > the box (and keep the check mark if the checkbutton was previously
| > in selected state). The aqua themes draws a white dash on blue
| > background, and the vista theme does the same on Windows 11 (on
| > earlier Windows versions it used to draw a black square on white
| > background).  (The implementation of the vista theme makes use of
| > the Microsoft Visual Styles API, whose drawing engine on Windows 11
| > draws a white dash rather than a black square). Most modern Gtk
| > themes also display the alternate state of their native checkbuttons
| > like the Ttk themes aqua and vista.
| > My main goal with providing a new implementation of the
| > ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton indicators was to replace
| > their old Motif-style look with a modern one, and the use of a white
| > dash for the alternate state seems to have become the standard both
| > in Ttk and on the modern desktops.

| So, windows 11 changes this. That figures. Wasn't windows 10 supposed
| to be the last version of windows :)

| Yes, I don't like the alt and clam approach. Very confusing.

| On windows, I've only seen the little black square once in a text
| editor preference setting, and I don't even remember what it was used
| for. So, it is likely to be rare.

| But that's when a self-explanatory ? might have been useful.

| That was my thinking.

IMHO from a user's point of view the tri-state is only confusing.

A checkbox/radiobutton is either selected or not selected. Any other
symbol (and even different ones in different contexts!) only makes me
wonder "What does that mean? Is it checked?" (Imagine a single checkbox showing the minus-sign.)

If none of the checkboxes/radiobuttons is selected - so be it! The
tri-state is - probably - information for the programmer, but not for
the end-user. If the program requires a selection, you need to check
anyway on 'Ok' and give a hint to the user how to proceed.

Remedy is easy though, just set the connected variable, so the tri-state
does not trigger.

My €0.01
R'

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Am 15.05.23 um 11:40 schrieb Ralf Fassel:

* et99 <[email protected]>
| On 5/14/2023 5:13 AM, nemethi wrote:
| > The way a theme indicates that one of its ttk::checkbutton widgets
| > is in the alternate (tri-state) state is theme-specific.  For
| > example, the alt and clam themes just change the background color of
| > the box (and keep the check mark if the checkbutton was previously
| > in selected state). The aqua themes draws a white dash on blue
| > background, and the vista theme does the same on Windows 11 (on
| > earlier Windows versions it used to draw a black square on white
| > background).  (The implementation of the vista theme makes use of
| > the Microsoft Visual Styles API, whose drawing engine on Windows 11
| > draws a white dash rather than a black square). Most modern Gtk
| > themes also display the alternate state of their native checkbuttons
| > like the Ttk themes aqua and vista.
| > My main goal with providing a new implementation of the
| > ttk::checkbutton and ttk::radiobutton indicators was to replace
| > their old Motif-style look with a modern one, and the use of a white
| > dash for the alternate state seems to have become the standard both
| > in Ttk and on the modern desktops.

| So, windows 11 changes this. That figures. Wasn't windows 10 supposed
| to be the last version of windows :)

| Yes, I don't like the alt and clam approach. Very confusing.

| On windows, I've only seen the little black square once in a text
| editor preference setting, and I don't even remember what it was used
| for. So, it is likely to be rare.

| But that's when a self-explanatory ? might have been useful.

| That was my thinking.

IMHO from a user's point of view the tri-state is only confusing.

A checkbox/radiobutton is either selected or not selected. Any other
symbol (and even different ones in different contexts!) only makes me
wonder "What does that mean? Is it checked?" (Imagine a single checkbox showing the minus-sign.)

If none of the checkboxes/radiobuttons is selected - so be it! The
tri-state is - probably - information for the programmer, but not for
the end-user. If the program requires a selection, you need to check
anyway on 'Ok' and give a hint to the user how to proceed.

Remedy is easy though, just set the connected variable, so the tri-state
does not trigger.

My €0.01
R'

An example in which the tri-state mode is IMHO not confusing is the
Tablelist demo-script tileWidgets.tcl, as of Tablelist 6.21. Here the ttk::checkbutton embedded into the header label of the column
"available" appears in tri-state mode and is selected/deselected or set
into the tri-state mode whenever the editing changes the value of any
cell contained in this column. This is a typical use case where the
tri-state mode reflects that some of the boolean values within a given
set are true and the others are false.

For a similar example see the checkbutton demo "4. Check-buttons (select
any of a group)" within the Widget Demonstration application included in
your Tcl/Tk installation.

--
Csaba Nemethi https://www.nemethi.de mailto:[email protected]

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Ralf Fassel <[email protected]> wrote:

A checkbox/radiobutton is either selected or not selected. Any other
symbol (and even different ones in different contexts!) only makes me
wonder "What does that mean? Is it checked?" (Imagine a single checkbox showing the minus-sign.)

I can't disagree about what it means to you, but it certainly doesn't seem
so to me.

There are various reasons for tri-state checkbuttons, for example with tree-like structures where each item has a checkbox, and a parent-node
shows a check-box to modify all children at once. - if the children are
not consistent on the value of their individual checkbox, then the parent should show a third-state, to show that neither all children are checked
nor all children are unchecked. In that case it shouldn't be disabled,
either, because one should be able to click it, to get all children back
to same state (whichever - if wrong, just click again).

Welcome to non-binary world - even among checkboxes ;-)

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* Andreas Leitgeb <[email protected]>
| Ralf Fassel <[email protected]> wrote:
| > A checkbox/radiobutton is either selected or not selected. Any other
| > symbol (and even different ones in different contexts!) only makes me
| > wonder "What does that mean? Is it checked?" (Imagine a single checkbox
| > showing the minus-sign.)

| I can't disagree about what it means to you, but it certainly doesn't
| seem so to me.

| There are various reasons for tri-state checkbuttons, for example with
| tree-like structures where each item has a checkbox, and a parent-node
| shows a check-box to modify all children at once. - if the children are
| not consistent on the value of their individual checkbox, then the parent
| should show a third-state, to show that neither all children are checked
| nor all children are unchecked. In that case it shouldn't be disabled,
| either, because one should be able to click it, to get all children back
| to same state (whichever - if wrong, just click again).

| Welcome to non-binary world - even among checkboxes ;-)

Ok, agreed :-)

R'

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