Has anybody tried the Awesome ttk themes by rdbende ?

https://github.com/rdbende

I am currently using a lot the AWThemes. As Brad has left us, this may
be a successor ?

Thank you all,
Harald

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Am 06.02.22 um 13:48 schrieb Harald Oehlmann:

Has anybody tried the Awesome ttk themes by rdbende ?

https://github.com/rdbende

I am currently using a lot the AWThemes. As Brad has left us, this may
be a successor ?

Awesome discovery! He also made a Python wrapper for tkdnd, which I
consider a core-level package for Tk, but unfortunately is distributed
not with the core and therefore not included in the standard Python distro.

Christian

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I'd tried rdbende's themes. Very good themes.

Though, I've found some issues. So, I tried to resolve them, here:
https://github.com/aplsimple/ale_themes
There are docs and demos which hopefully will speak better.

License is MIT, so you can try and modify them as well.

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Am 06.02.2022 um 18:15 schrieb Alex P:

I'd tried rdbende's themes. Very good themes.

Though, I've found some issues. So, I tried to resolve them, here:
https://github.com/aplsimple/ale_themes
There are docs and demos which hopefully will speak better.

License is MIT, so you can try and modify them as well.

Wow, that is awesome. Have you informed rdbende about your findings ?

Thanks,
Harald

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Am 07.02.2022 um 14:34 schrieb Alexandru:

Harald Oehlmann schrieb am Sonntag, 6. Februar 2022 um 13:48:27 UTC+1:

Has anybody tried the Awesome ttk themes by rdbende ?

https://github.com/rdbende

I am currently using a lot the AWThemes. As Brad has left us, this may
be a successor ?

Thank you all,
Harald

Awesome! But it makes my GUI slow. Why? I can see how buttons are packed one after another.
Without it, the effect is not perciptible.
Also when I scale the window, I can see how the geometry manager redraws the widgets.

Alexandru,

great, that you tried it. To my knowledge, all clam-based themes are
slow on Windows. But on Android, it is ok.

Do you see the same speed issue with AWDark ?

Thank you,
Harald

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Harald Oehlmann schrieb am Sonntag, 6. Februar 2022 um 13:48:27 UTC+1:

Has anybody tried the Awesome ttk themes by rdbende ?

https://github.com/rdbende

I am currently using a lot the AWThemes. As Brad has left us, this may
be a successor ?

Thank you all,
Harald

Awesome! But it makes my GUI slow. Why? I can see how buttons are packed one after another.
Without it, the effect is not perciptible.
Also when I scale the window, I can see how the geometry manager redraws the widgets.

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Harald Oehlmann schrieb am Montag, 7. Februar 2022 um 14:45:46 UTC+1:

Am 07.02.2022 um 14:34 schrieb Alexandru:

Harald Oehlmann schrieb am Sonntag, 6. Februar 2022 um 13:48:27 UTC+1:

Has anybody tried the Awesome ttk themes by rdbende ?

https://github.com/rdbende

I am currently using a lot the AWThemes. As Brad has left us, this may
be a successor ?

Thank you all,
Harald

Awesome! But it makes my GUI slow. Why? I can see how buttons are packed one after another.
Without it, the effect is not perciptible.
Also when I scale the window, I can see how the geometry manager redraws the widgets.

Alexandru,

great, that you tried it. To my knowledge, all clam-based themes are
slow on Windows. But on Android, it is ok.

Do you see the same speed issue with AWDark ?

Thank you,
Harald

AWDark does not cause perfomance issues.
What is the difference?

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Alexandru, Harald,

These themes are graphical - as noted in https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/List+of+ttk+Themes .
They use png files heavily.
Hence there may be troubles with the performance & scaling.

However, I'm not experiencing them even on 13 year old x86 device. Last year permanently using alited editor based on apave package, both my own, with "forest-dark" theme and "ForestDark" color scheme.
To be honest, all this needed a lot of fuss to make GUI friendly and responsive.
Regards,
Alex

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Am 07.02.22 um 19:22 schrieb Alex P:

Alexandru, Harald,

These themes are graphical - as noted in https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/List+of+ttk+Themes .
They use png files heavily.
Hence there may be troubles with the performance & scaling.

However, I'm not experiencing them even on 13 year old x86 device.

I guess you are using Linux. I've noticed that the graphical themes
perform quite badly on macOS and Windows, compared to Linux, where they
are a noticeably slower, but not that bad. Perhaps the bitmap part of
ttk is not that great, considering that the other engines like QT work
very smoothly on all OSes.

Christian

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Christian Gollwitzer schrieb am Montag, 7. Februar 2022 um 19:58:46 UTC+1:

Am 07.02.22 um 19:22 schrieb Alex P:

Alexandru, Harald,

These themes are graphical - as noted in https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/List+of+ttk+Themes .
They use png files heavily.
Hence there may be troubles with the performance & scaling.

However, I'm not experiencing them even on 13 year old x86 device.

I guess you are using Linux. I've noticed that the graphical themes
perform quite badly on macOS and Windows, compared to Linux, where they
are a noticeably slower, but not that bad. Perhaps the bitmap part of
ttk is not that great, considering that the other engines like QT work
very smoothly on all OSes.

Christian

So what would be the solution to the performance issue on Windows?

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Harald Oehlmann schrieb am Dienstag, 8. Februar 2022 um 08:32:29 UTC+1:

Am 08.02.2022 um 05:11 schrieb Alexandru:

Christian Gollwitzer schrieb am Montag, 7. Februar 2022 um 19:58:46 UTC+1:

Am 07.02.22 um 19:22 schrieb Alex P:

Alexandru, Harald,

These themes are graphical - as noted in https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/List+of+ttk+Themes .
They use png files heavily.
Hence there may be troubles with the performance & scaling.

However, I'm not experiencing them even on 13 year old x86 device.

I guess you are using Linux. I've noticed that the graphical themes
perform quite badly on macOS and Windows, compared to Linux, where they
are a noticeably slower, but not that bad. Perhaps the bitmap part of
ttk is not that great, considering that the other engines like QT work
very smoothly on all OSes.

Christian

So what would be the solution to the performance issue on Windows?

Well, tk and ttk was always a X11 extension ported to Windows. The performance is always poor on Windows. The less poor are the native themes. For fun, you can take the same machine with Linux and Windows. You will
see around 30%-300% less speed on Windows.

It is as it is...

Take care,
Harald

So it's the core implementation that is not optimized for Windows.
The standard themes are not slow. At least not perciptible by user.
The AWdark theme is also not slower than the standard theme.
It looks like the bottle neck is only the way bitmaps are handled.
I think there should be a substantial effort to make Tcl/Tk faster with respect to this matter.
Otherwise it will be sooner "dead" than we want.
Since I'm not a true programmer, I'm afrait I cannot contribute with a fix.
I can only observe an point to the issue.

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Am 08.02.2022 um 05:11 schrieb Alexandru:

Christian Gollwitzer schrieb am Montag, 7. Februar 2022 um 19:58:46 UTC+1:

Am 07.02.22 um 19:22 schrieb Alex P:

Alexandru, Harald,

These themes are graphical - as noted in https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/List+of+ttk+Themes .
They use png files heavily.
Hence there may be troubles with the performance & scaling.

However, I'm not experiencing them even on 13 year old x86 device.

I guess you are using Linux. I've noticed that the graphical themes
perform quite badly on macOS and Windows, compared to Linux, where they
are a noticeably slower, but not that bad. Perhaps the bitmap part of
ttk is not that great, considering that the other engines like QT work
very smoothly on all OSes.

Christian

So what would be the solution to the performance issue on Windows?

Well, tk and ttk was always a X11 extension ported to Windows. The
performance is always poor on Windows. The less poor are the native themes.
For fun, you can take the same machine with Linux and Windows. You will
see around 30%-300% less speed on Windows.

It is as it is...

Take care,
Harald

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Am 08.02.22 um 09:13 schrieb Alexandru:

So it's the core implementation that is not optimized for Windows.
The standard themes are not slow. At least not perciptible by user.
The AWdark theme is also not slower than the standard theme.

AWdark IS slower than the standard theme, but not as bad as others. On
macOS that slowy thing is much worse (unbearable) and here you can still
see that AWdark is slow. Brad had put a lot of effort to reduce the
number of bitmap elements to keep it acceptable.

I think there should be a substantial effort to make Tcl/Tk faster with respect to this matter.
Otherwise it will be sooner "dead" than we want.
Since I'm not a true programmer, I'm afrait I cannot contribute with a fix.

The problem here is that few people get excited by working on low-level infrastructure stuff like that, and in addition you need to have your
primary development system on these platforms. I had some cursory look
into the Tk drawing code and it contains many arcane cruft like
dithering for low-color displays which I doubt anyone has a functioning
one at all these days.

Then there are a few places which look suspicious. However, it is not
clear if fixing it can actually improve things. For example. here:

https://github.com/tcltk/tk/blob/8f2b0fdc7e68e7d168faa40e2e25dab300f1fab6/generic/tkImgPhInstance.c#L638

is the drawing code for a photo image. Every time the image is drawn, it allocates a new XImage via XCreatImage and destroys it after painting to
the screen immediately. Now, if XCreateImage is a heavy operation on
Windows, e.g. allocates memory on the graphics card, then this will be
slow for repeated painting.

I have no idea if that is it, and fixing this would take lots of effort, restructuring, many crashes and in the end you might find out that this
is not at all relevant. Unless you do this for a living.....


Christian

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Alexandru,

A bit (or lot:) of efforts need to make Tcl/Tk GUI programs behave responsive and friendly.

Let me recommend you a great source of knowledge:

https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/

---------------------------------------

Specifically, as for troubles with the slow display of windows, Tcl/Tk gurus recommend this way of layout & display windows:

package require Tk
# ...
wm withdraw .
# ...
set window [toplevel .win] ;# or some other way to make the window
wm withdraw $window
pack [ttk::button $window.but1 -text "Button 1"]
# ... other pack & grid
# ... wm minsize $window $width $height
# ... wm geometry $window $newGeometry
# e.g. ... wm geometry $window 100x50+300+100
# ... other wm commands
# ... other initial actions
wm deiconify $window

In Windows you can use also

wm attributes $window -alpha 0.0
wm attributes $window -alpha 1.0

instead of "wm withdraw" and "wm deiconify" accordingly.

For Macs, they recommend "raise" command instead of "wm deiconify".

This way you

1. make your window hidden
2. pack & grid your widgets in the window
3. display the window

Thus, a user doesn't see the packing/gridding (which otherwise may be visible, generally).

Also, your window is displayed with your preferred dimensions/minsizes, all easily saved/restored to/from a config file.

---------------------------------------

All the same, use

https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/

It's an ocean of Tcl/Tk info. Dive into it!

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Alex P schrieb am Dienstag, 8. Februar 2022 um 16:07:35 UTC+1:

Alexandru,

A bit (or lot:) of efforts need to make Tcl/Tk GUI programs behave responsive and friendly.

Let me recommend you a great source of knowledge:

https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/

---------------------------------------

Specifically, as for troubles with the slow display of windows, Tcl/Tk gurus recommend this way of layout & display windows:

package require Tk
# ...
wm withdraw .
# ...
set window [toplevel .win] ;# or some other way to make the window
wm withdraw $window
pack [ttk::button $window.but1 -text "Button 1"]
# ... other pack & grid
# ... wm minsize $window $width $height
# ... wm geometry $window $newGeometry
# e.g. ... wm geometry $window 100x50+300+100
# ... other wm commands
# ... other initial actions
wm deiconify $window

In Windows you can use also

wm attributes $window -alpha 0.0
wm attributes $window -alpha 1.0

instead of "wm withdraw" and "wm deiconify" accordingly.

For Macs, they recommend "raise" command instead of "wm deiconify".

This way you

1. make your window hidden
2. pack & grid your widgets in the window
3. display the window

Thus, a user doesn't see the packing/gridding (which otherwise may be visible, generally).

Thanks for the tips.
The described method is good when creating a new toplevel.
What happens when I only resize the window? Hiding the content during resizing is not nice.

Also, your window is displayed with your preferred dimensions/minsizes, all easily saved/restored to/from a config file.

---------------------------------------

All the same, use

https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/

It's an ocean of Tcl/Tk info. Dive into it!

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