In article <vsu5dj$19k7e$[email protected]>,
David Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
...

The language he uses in this thread is just beyond the pale (*) in terms of >> rudeness and non-civility. If his target was anyone else (and especially
if it was an old regular), we'd probably have 20 posts already condemning
his language.

(*) I think that's the right spelling - for a phrase I've only heard and
have never seen written down. Or is it "pail" ?

It's even more off-topic, but I like to answer questions when asked -
yes, you are correct that it is "pale", from an old word for post or
fence (with similar etymology to "post", as in "wooden post"). Thus
"beyond the pale" is outside the borders or boundaries of your little
bit of civilisation.

Thanks. That is useful to know.

But then I wonder if there is any connection between the word "pale"
meaning "post" and its modern meaning (as in "A Whiter Shade of Pale").

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On 07/04/2025 18:08, Kenny McCormack wrote:

In article <vsu5dj$19k7e$[email protected]>,
David Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
...

The language he uses in this thread is just beyond the pale (*) in terms of >>> rudeness and non-civility. If his target was anyone else (and especially >>> if it was an old regular), we'd probably have 20 posts already condemning >>> his language.

(*) I think that's the right spelling - for a phrase I've only heard and >>> have never seen written down. Or is it "pail" ?

It's even more off-topic, but I like to answer questions when asked -
yes, you are correct that it is "pale", from an old word for post or
fence (with similar etymology to "post", as in "wooden post"). Thus
"beyond the pale" is outside the borders or boundaries of your little
bit of civilisation.

Thanks. That is useful to know.

But then I wonder if there is any connection between the word "pale"
meaning "post" and its modern meaning (as in "A Whiter Shade of Pale").

"pale" meaning "post" stretches back (via Old French) to the Latin
"palus" (meaning "wooden post"), and is seen in modern English in words
like "pallet".

"pale" meaning "light-coloured" or "white" also comes to English from
Latin via Old French, but the Latin word was "pallidus".

The two Latin roots appear to come from different Proto-Indo-European
words (meaning "to fasten" and "burnt" or "ashen"), but PIE roots are
always somewhat speculative.

It's always conceivable that there was some crossover or mixups in
meanings as the two different words coalesced in English, but I don't
know of any. It seems more likely that it is just a coincidental
homonym, of which there are countless examples in English.

And now I will try to resist the temptation to be drawn more off-topic,
and leave the etymology there.

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On 2025-04-07, Kenny McCormack <[email protected]> wrote:

But then I wonder if there is any connection between the word "pale"
meaning "post" and its modern meaning (as in "A Whiter Shade of Pale").

Wictionary asserts an etymology hypothesis for "beyond the pale"
having the pole interpretation:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beyond_the_pale

Etymonoline pegs "pale" (white) as being of Latin oriigin ("pallidus")
and "pale" (stick, pole) of Latin origian also ("palus"):

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pale

From that we have words like "impale" and "pallid".

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On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 23:30:39 -0000 (UTC)
Kaz Kylheku <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2025-04-07, Kenny McCormack <[email protected]> wrote:

But then I wonder if there is any connection between the word "pale" meaning "post" and its modern meaning (as in "A Whiter Shade of
Pale").

Wictionary asserts an etymology hypothesis for "beyond the pale"
having the pole interpretation:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beyond_the_pale

Etymonoline pegs "pale" (white) as being of Latin oriigin ("pallidus")

white,pale:
Russian - белый, бледный
Bulgarian - бяло, блед
Croatian - bijela, blijeda
Polish - biały, blady
Czech - bílý, bledý
Lithuanian - baltas, blyškus
Spanish - blanco, pálido
Italian - bianco, pallido
French - blanc, pâle
Romanian - alb, pal
Latin - album, pallidus

It looks as the same root that undertook different phonetic
transformation.
More so, not being a linguist, I can allow to myself a wilder guess -
the root is older than the split between indo-european and semitic
languages
Hebrew - לָבָן

and "pale" (stick, pole) of Latin origian also ("palus"):

Russian - палка
Ukrainian - палиця
Spanish - palo

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pale

From that we have words like "impale" and "pallid".

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On 2025-04-08, Michael S <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 23:30:39 -0000 (UTC)
Kaz Kylheku <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2025-04-07, Kenny McCormack <[email protected]> wrote:

But then I wonder if there is any connection between the word "pale"
meaning "post" and its modern meaning (as in "A Whiter Shade of
Pale").

Wictionary asserts an etymology hypothesis for "beyond the pale"
having the pole interpretation:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beyond_the_pale

Etymonoline pegs "pale" (white) as being of Latin oriigin ("pallidus")

white,pale:
Russian - белый, бледный
Bulgarian - бяло, блед
Croatian - bijela, blijeda
Polish - biały, blady
Czech - bílý, bledý
Lithuanian - baltas, blyškus
Spanish - blanco, pálido
Italian - bianco, pallido
French - blanc, pâle
Romanian - alb, pal
Latin - album, pallidus

It looks as the same root that undertook different phonetic

"pallid" and "blank" do not look like the same root to me at all.

According to Etymonline, blank comes from the Proto Indo-Europan
root bhel-:

This also might be the root for the slavik words above like "biela".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/*bhel-

But "pallid", from "pallidus" is supposedly from this PIE root:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/*pel-#etymonline_v_52783

Both roots have descendants in Slavic languages.

Slovak:

*bhel -> biela farba (white color, feminime)

*pel -> plavá farba (pale color)

Now about "album"? The PIE root there is albh-. The non-loanword we get
in Slovak out of that is evidently is the word "labuť", meaning swan.

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