• Re: Command Languages Versus Programming Languages

    From James Kuyper@21:1/5 to Dan Cross on Sat Nov 23 09:44:07 2024
    On 11/23/24 09:05, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <vhrmk1$1ivhr$[email protected]>,
    James Kuyper <[email protected]> wrote:
    ...
    Your wording could easily give the false impression, to anyone who
    didn't already know better, that promotion of unsigned char to signed
    int is required by the standard, rather than it being dependent upon
    whether UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    Actually I'm not sure that it did. Note the part that you
    quoted above that says, "the entire range values is expressible
    in a signed int." This implies UCHAR_MAX <= INT_MAX. (By
    "values" I meant, "values of that type", not specific values in
    any given program).

    You paired that assertion with "`unsigned char` has _rank_
    lower than _int_", which is a fact guaranteed by the standard, which
    could easily give the impression that the comment about the range of
    values was either explicitly stated in the standard, or correctly
    inferrable from the statement about the ranks.


    ...
    ... Since we're talking about operands to
    a binary operator, 6.3.1.8 applies. 6.3.1.8 is why converting
    one side to unsigned is sufficient to get an unsigned result.

    Calling them the usual arithmetic conversions rather than the integer
    promotions is being unnecessarily vague. Your description only covers
    the integer promotions, it doesn't cover any of the other usual
    arithmetic conversions.

    The integer promotions were the only relevant part in context.
    Perhaps it would have allayed your concerns to say, "part of"?

    Partially. However since you described the integer promotions, and the description you provided didn't fit any other part of the usual
    arithmetic conversions, and the part you described has it's own special
    name, and the integer promotions can occur without the usual arithmetic conversions, it still seems to me more appropriate to say that what you described were the integer promotions.

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to James Kuyper on Sat Nov 23 10:39:34 2024
    On 11/23/24 9:43 AM, James Kuyper wrote:
    On 11/23/24 09:05, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <vhrmk1$1ivhr$[email protected]>,
    James Kuyper <[email protected]> wrote:
    ...
    Your wording could easily give the false impression, to anyone who
    didn't already know better, that promotion of unsigned char to signed
    int is required by the standard, rather than it being dependent upon
    whether UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    Actually I'm not sure that it did. Note the part that you
    quoted above that says, "the entire range values is expressible
    in a signed int." This implies UCHAR_MAX <= INT_MAX. (By
    "values" I meant, "values of that type", not specific values in
    any given program).

    You paired that assertion with "`unsigned char` has _rank_
    lower than _int_", which is a fact guaranteed by the standard, which
    could easily give the impression that the comment about the range of
    values was either explicitly stated in the standard, or correctly
    inferrable from the statement about the ranks.

    I don't think unsigned char is guarateed by the standard to be less than
    that of int.

    On a machine with wide bytes (like some DSP processors) sizeof int could
    be 1, which results is some unexpected results,
    like UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.



    ...
    ... Since we're talking about operands to
    a binary operator, 6.3.1.8 applies. 6.3.1.8 is why converting
    one side to unsigned is sufficient to get an unsigned result.

    Calling them the usual arithmetic conversions rather than the integer
    promotions is being unnecessarily vague. Your description only covers
    the integer promotions, it doesn't cover any of the other usual
    arithmetic conversions.

    The integer promotions were the only relevant part in context.
    Perhaps it would have allayed your concerns to say, "part of"?

    Partially. However since you described the integer promotions, and the description you provided didn't fit any other part of the usual
    arithmetic conversions, and the part you described has it's own special
    name, and the integer promotions can occur without the usual arithmetic conversions, it still seems to me more appropriate to say that what you described were the integer promotions.


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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Tue Nov 26 04:14:58 2024
    Richard Damon <[email protected]> writes:

    On 11/23/24 9:43 AM, James Kuyper wrote:

    On 11/23/24 09:05, Dan Cross wrote:

    In article <vhrmk1$1ivhr$[email protected]>,
    James Kuyper <[email protected]> wrote:

    ...

    Your wording could easily give the false impression, to anyone
    who didn't already know better, that promotion of unsigned char
    to signed int is required by the standard, rather than it being
    dependent upon whether UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    Actually I'm not sure that it did. Note the part that you quoted
    above that says, "the entire range values is expressible in a
    signed int." This implies UCHAR_MAX <= INT_MAX. (By "values" I
    meant, "values of that type", not specific values in any given
    program).

    You paired that assertion with "`unsigned char` has _rank_ lower
    than _int_", which is a fact guaranteed by the standard, which
    could easily give the impression that the comment about the range
    of values was either explicitly stated in the standard, or
    correctly inferrable from the statement about the ranks.

    I don't think unsigned char is guarateed by the standard to be
    less than that of int.

    The integer conversion rank of unsigned char is guaranteed to be
    less than the integer conversion rank of int (which incidentally is
    the same as the integer conversion rank of unsigned int).

    But the set of values of unsigned char is not guaranteed to be a
    subset of the set of values of int.

    On a machine with wide bytes (like some DSP processors) sizeof int
    could be 1, which results is some unexpected results,
    like UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    sizeof (int) == 1 is sufficient but not necessary.

    As long as CHAR_BIT > 15, it is possible for UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX
    regardless of the value of sizeof (int).

    It would be amusing to see an implementation where CHAR_BIT == 16,
    and sizeof (int) == sizeof (long) == sizeof (long long) == 4, but
    nevertheless UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Tue Nov 26 10:02:46 2024
    On 11/26/24 7:14 AM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Richard Damon <[email protected]> writes:

    On 11/23/24 9:43 AM, James Kuyper wrote:

    On 11/23/24 09:05, Dan Cross wrote:

    In article <vhrmk1$1ivhr$[email protected]>,
    James Kuyper <[email protected]> wrote:

    ...

    Your wording could easily give the false impression, to anyone
    who didn't already know better, that promotion of unsigned char
    to signed int is required by the standard, rather than it being
    dependent upon whether UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    Actually I'm not sure that it did. Note the part that you quoted
    above that says, "the entire range values is expressible in a
    signed int." This implies UCHAR_MAX <= INT_MAX. (By "values" I
    meant, "values of that type", not specific values in any given
    program).

    You paired that assertion with "`unsigned char` has _rank_ lower
    than _int_", which is a fact guaranteed by the standard, which
    could easily give the impression that the comment about the range
    of values was either explicitly stated in the standard, or
    correctly inferrable from the statement about the ranks.

    I don't think unsigned char is guarateed by the standard to be
    less than that of int.

    The integer conversion rank of unsigned char is guaranteed to be
    less than the integer conversion rank of int (which incidentally is
    the same as the integer conversion rank of unsigned int).

    Right, I forgot that "conversion rank" ignores signess, and doesn't
    actually provide the full ranking of conversions.


    But the set of values of unsigned char is not guaranteed to be a
    subset of the set of values of int.

    On a machine with wide bytes (like some DSP processors) sizeof int
    could be 1, which results is some unexpected results,
    like UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

    sizeof (int) == 1 is sufficient but not necessary.

    As long as CHAR_BIT > 15, it is possible for UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX
    regardless of the value of sizeof (int).

    It would be amusing to see an implementation where CHAR_BIT == 16,
    and sizeof (int) == sizeof (long) == sizeof (long long) == 4, but nevertheless UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX.

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