• Re: [telecom] Am I the Only One Who Sees a Problem?

    From Fred Goldstein@21:1/5 to Bill Horne on Mon Dec 5 09:36:24 2022
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 12/4/2022 5:31 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

    As most of my readers know, I've been dissatisfied with Verizon
    Mobile, and the way it has demanded that those like my wife, who had
    “4G” phones which were not “4G” enough to suit their taste, buy new cell phones to enable her to keep paying exorbitant amounts of money
    to Verizon Mobile so she can “enjoy” the “benefits” of something called “volte” - whatever that may be.


    VoLTE is Voice over LTE. It means that your voice call is carried on the
    LTE network rather than on the old CDMA network (or whatever that
    carrier used to use, like GSM if it's T-Mobile).

    While I am never one to defend Verizon, in this case they're right. The brilliant folks at 3GPP who invented LTE, which for the record is
    /incredibly/ complex, had the weird notion that the folks over in the
    TCP/IP world, who worked on that sexy Internet thingy, were somehow
    brighter than them, and therefore they had to do everything in LTE using TCP/IP. Which was bad enough, since TCP/IP is a terrible kludge held
    together with lots of bailing wire and Moore's Law spit.

    Now in the TCP/IP world there are at least three ways to carry voice. Enterprise systems do so by running a shim layer below IP, usually MPLS,
    which provides a quality-assured connection (btw that last word is a red
    flag to an IP fanatic, for silly historical reasons) to the IP flow
    within it. Low-tier consumer VoIP services (like Vonage) simply "send
    and pray" that the "best efforts" (scare quotes required) IP delivery
    mechanism of the public Internet doesn't lose so many packets that the
    voice is garbled. The third way is an early 2000s idea called IMS, IP Multimedia Subsystem, which has the simplicity of a Rube Goldberg
    contraption. Essentially it tries to monitor all TCP flows in order to
    make sure there's room for the voice flow. (The original idea around
    2002 was to be able to bill for them.) It had largely been abandoned
    elsewhere when 3GPP adopted it as the way to run voice over LTE.

    So come 2010 or so, LTE cells were popping up all over the place, but
    VoLTE was still being worked on, since IMS is the 2000-piece jigsaw
    puzzle of networking and was layered atop the 1000-piece puzzle of LTE.
    Hence all "LTE" phones of that era retained their underlying carrier's
    3G (or 2G) voice protocol while using LTE for data. Which on a flip
    phone ain't much, but hey it was in the chipset so the phone could be
    labeled LTE. And this did finally let Verizon use SIM cards, which were invented for GSM and which the GSMA had essentially banned CDMA networs
    from using.

    So your wife's ancient flip phone is not VoLTE but CDMA for voice, and
    the CDMA network is being shut down since she is one of the last two
    dozen or so people in the country regularly using it. And you need a
    phone that has VoLTE, which has been running for probable over a decade
    by now. This isn't any con-spee-waaah-see by Verizon, it's just routine
    product evolution, like current software no longer supporting Windows XP machines or PowerPC Macs.

    --
    Fred R. Goldstein k1io fred "at" interisle.net
    Interisle Consulting Group
    +1 617 795 2701

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/4/2022 5:31 PM, Bill Horne wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="mid:[email protected]">
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <p><font size="4">As most of my readers know, I've been
    dissatisfied with Verizon Mobile, and the way it has demanded
    that those like my wife, who had “4G” phones which were not
    “4G” enough to suit their taste, buy new cell phones to enable
    her to keep paying exorbitant amounts of money to Verizon
    Mobile so she can “enjoy” the “benefits” of something called
    “volte” - whatever that may be.</font></p>
    <font size="4"></font></blockquote>
    <br>
    VoLTE is Voice over LTE. It means that your voice call is carried on
    the LTE network rather than on the old CDMA network (or whatever
    that carrier used to use, like GSM if it's T-Mobile).<br>
    <br>
    While I am never one to defend Verizon, in this case they're right.
    The brilliant folks at 3GPP who invented LTE, which for the record
    is <i>incredibly</i> complex, had the weird notion that the folks
    over in the TCP/IP world, who worked on that sexy Internet thingy,
    were somehow brighter than them, and therefore they had to do
    everything in LTE using TCP/IP. Which was bad enough, since TCP/IP
    is a terrible kludge held together with lots of bailing wire and
    Moore's Law spit. <br>
    <br>
    Now in the TCP/IP world there are at least three ways to carry
    voice. Enterprise systems do so by running a shim layer below IP,
    usually MPLS, which provides a quality-assured connection (btw that
    last word is a red flag to an IP fanatic, for silly historical
    reasons) to the IP flow within it. Low-tier consumer VoIP services
    (like Vonage) simply "send and pray" that the "best efforts" (scare
    quotes required) IP delivery mechanism of the public Internet
    doesn't lose so many packets that the voice is garbled. The third
    way is an early 2000s idea called IMS, IP Multimedia Subsystem,
    which has the simplicity of a Rube Goldberg contraption. Essentially
    it tries to monitor all TCP flows in order to make sure there's room
    for the voice flow. (The original idea around 2002 was to be able to
    bill for them.) It had largely been abandoned elsewhere when 3GPP
    adopted it as the way to run voice over LTE. <br>
    <br>
    So come 2010 or so, LTE cells were popping up all over the place,
    but VoLTE was still being worked on, since IMS is the 2000-piece
    jigsaw puzzle of networking and was layered atop the 1000-piece
    puzzle of LTE. Hence all "LTE" phones of that era retained their
    underlying carrier's 3G (or 2G) voice protocol while using LTE for
    data. Which on a flip phone ain't much, but hey it was in the
    chipset so the phone could be labeled LTE. And this did finally let
    Verizon use SIM cards, which were invented for GSM and which the
    GSMA had essentially banned CDMA networs from using.<br>
    <br>
    So your wife's ancient flip phone is not VoLTE but CDMA for voice,
    and the CDMA network is being shut down since she is one of the last
    two dozen or so people in the country regularly using it. And you
    need a phone that has VoLTE, which has been running for probable
    over a decade by now. This isn't any con-spee-waaah-see by Verizon,
    it's just routine product evolution, like current software no longer
    supporting Windows XP machines or PowerPC Macs. <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
    Fred R. Goldstein k1io fred "at" interisle.net
    Interisle Consulting Group
    +1 617 795 2701</pre>
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  • From Harold Hallikainen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 5 10:19:06 2022
    This seems like the perfect opportunity to look at Verizon's competitors.
    Are they more competitive? I suspect the only way to change their behavior
    is to have large numbers of their customers move to other carriers.

    Harold
    https://w6iwi.org

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  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Fred Goldstein on Tue Dec 6 12:33:28 2022
    On 12/5/2022 9:36, Fred Goldstein wrote:

    So your wife's ancient flip phone is not VoLTE but CDMA for voice, and
    the CDMA network is being shut down since she is one of the last two
    dozen or so people in the country regularly using it. And you need a
    phone that has VoLTE, which has been running for probable over a decade
    by now. This isn't any con-spee-waaah-see by Verizon, it's just routine product evolution, like current software no longer supporting Windows XP machines or PowerPC Macs.

    To be fair, there are a number of smart phones (not just ancient
    flip-phones) which are branded "4G LTE", but do not support VoLTE --
    only 4G data. I would bet that there are a number of these still
    working, with networks attempting to push the users to a new phone.

    Take for instance the iPhone (since I used to work for Apple Care tech support)... The iPhone 6 was the first to support VoLTE. You could have
    a fairly new perfectly-capable iPhone 5s, released 2013 (and still sold
    up until recent years)... but it doesn't support VoLTE. Oops.

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