• Re: HHH(DDD) is correct to reject its input as non-halting --- EVIDENCE

    From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Jun 15 19:44:54 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while, yes,
    if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach a final
    state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all the other HHHs
    which differ see different inputs.

    You don't seem to understand that you can't use as a premise to a
    implication a false statement and get anything out of it.

    That


    THAT FACT THAT NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET THIS CHALLENGE
    IN SEVERAL YEARS IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE THAT I AM CORRECT.

    No, you are just showing that you don't understand how logic works.


    int DD()
    {
      int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
      if (Halt_Status)
        HERE: goto HERE;
      return Halt_Status;
    }

    DDD is a simplified version of DD.


    So, the above is NOT a complete description of DD, as it doesn't include
    the code for HHH, so either you admit that it is an invalid input as is,
    or that you have implicitly inlclude the code of HHH into the "input",
    and thus there is one and only one HHH that can exist in this problem,
    the one that DD is calling and has been included in its input.

    That also means that HHH has a full definition, and thus HHH(DD) or
    HHH(DDD) has a defined answer that it gives.

    If that answer is 0, the that means that HHH *HAS* aborted its
    simulaiton, and thus hasn't done a correct simulation of its input, and
    thus your proposition above doesn't hold as it is based on a false
    premise. THus the "Halting" property of that input CAN'T be defined by
    what HHH did, but only by the direct execution or complete and correct simulation of that exact same input (so it calls the HHH(DD) that aborts
    and returns 0, even though HHH isn't the machine simulating it, as it
    isn't allowed to know who is looking at it).

    This result, as you have previously admitted, is to Halt, and thus your
    HHH was just wrong.

    If you want to try to claim it returns 1, because it simulated to the
    end, then you are just admitting that your claim is a lie, but it turns
    out that with your structure, as the only way your HHH was allowed to
    return 1 was if it simulated to the end, and thus it actually did a
    correct simulation. But, as you proof has shown, no HHH that actually
    correctly simulates and never aborts, never reaches that final state, so
    you claim that HHH(DD) somehow returns 1 is an admittion that you have lied.

    The only other poissiblity is that HHH(DD) just doesn't return an
    answer, and that just makes it not a decider, and thus not a correct
    halt decider.

    Thus, your claim that HHH correctly determines that its input "DD" is non-halting is just proven to be incorrect, and given the number of
    times that this has been explained, it is impossibe to believe in a
    truely honest mistake, and thus it is either blatant lies, perhaps based
    on intentional ignorance, or just pathological lying based on a mental deficiency to understand the material and the meaning of words like
    "correct" and "truth".

    Sorry, you failure to answer nearly uncountable number of errors pointed
    out just provide that insurmountable proof of your error.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 16 10:49:25 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 16.jun.2025 om 02:57 schreef olcott:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while, yes,
    if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach a final
    state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all the other
    HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    Why repeating this failure of HHH to reach the end of the simulation of
    a halting program?
    We have seen that many times and it is not very interesting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 16 10:53:50 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.
    HHH is incorrect and there is no way to make a correct HHH for all inputs.


    THAT FACT THAT NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET THIS CHALLENGE
    IN SEVERAL YEARS IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE THAT I AM CORRECT.

    It has been proven that no correct HHH exists, so it makes no sense to challenge anybody to make a correct HHH. The challenge itself shows a
    lack of understanding of the matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Jun 16 07:28:01 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while, yes,
    if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach a final
    state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all the other
    HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer by,
    it is just a strawman.

    Since every decieer that gives an answer has stopped before reaching the
    end of the program, for which a complete simulation of it will, it just
    shows that it is wrong.

    Of course, you first have to fix the system so the input *IS* a program,
    which means that it includes the code of the decider it is built on,
    which means that decider need to also be a defined program.

    Thus, your LIES are exposed as just uses of strawmen to try to put
    forward incorrect conditions.

    Sorry, all you have been doing is show that your world is built on lies,
    and your brain seems to be based on straw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Jun 16 22:13:38 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach a
    final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all the
    other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

      (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
      simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

      (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
      reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.

    Non-Halting isn't just that a partial simulation doesn't reach a final
    state, and that is what your (a) describes, as to be NOT partial, it
    must simulate *ALL* the instructions.

    The fuller definition of non-halting is that a machine is non-halting if
    it will not reach a final state performing an UNBOUNDED number of steps.

    Doing only a finite number, and not reaching a final state is just indeterminate about halting, as no actual machine will stop running at
    that point, it *WILL* either reach a final state in a finite number of
    steps, or continue running for an UNBOUNDED number of steps.

    Your partial simulations just are not "correct", just "partially correct".


    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the above (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.



    because your criteria is just invalid, and based on you LIES by
    misdefinitions.

    By your logic a 1 mile road that you got off after walking 50 feet, is
    never ending, because you did not get to the end.

    Remember, each of the DDD you talk about above are *DIFFERENT* as the
    include the code of the SPECIFIC HHH that you claim is looking at it.

    Either that or you can't simulate "the input" past the call instruction,
    as the code after that isn't part of "the input"

    You are just caught in your lies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 17 11:31:29 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 16.jun.2025 om 18:58 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.
    HHH is incorrect

    Baseless dogmatic statements that are utterly bereft of any
    supporting reasoning at all DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS.

    Dreams that are utterly bereft of any supporting reasoning at all DO NOT
    COUNT AS REBUTTALS.


    and there is no way to make a correct HHH for all inputs.


    THAT FACT THAT NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET THIS CHALLENGE
    IN SEVERAL YEARS IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE THAT I AM CORRECT.

    It has been proven that no correct HHH exists,

    Counter-factual, Not one person ever proved this.

    Wrong. It has been proven, but you close your eyes and pretend that the
    proofs do not exit. Very childish.


    so it makes no sense to challenge anybody to make a correct HHH. The
    challenge itself shows a lack of understanding of the matter.


    In other words you don't have any rebuttal all you
    have is dogmatic statements utterly bereft of any
    supporting reasoning.


    Many words, but no reasoning in your text. It seems you cannot come up
    with a better counterargument.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 17 11:28:34 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a recipe to draw
    a square circle does not count as a proof that square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant, because the prerequisite is false. When your
    errors have been proven it is DISHONEST to claim that they do not exist.

    It seems impossible for you to read. We have presented many rebuttals,
    showing your errors, but you ignore them and just start again your claims. Repeating claims without any evidence is not a proof, nor a rebuttal.
    I see a very childish pattern in your behaviour. You close your eyes and pretend that thing you do not see do not exist.
    1. Your HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation and you pretend
    that the end does not exist.
    2. You ignore the errors in your claims presented to you, cut them from
    your citations and then pretend that these rebuttals do not exist.
    For adults such childish behaviour would be called dishonest.

    Don't you understand that dreams of infinite recursion do not count as rebuttals?
    Dreams do not prove more than dogmatic assertions.
    Try to think!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 17 11:40:18 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 16.jun.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach a
    final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all the
    other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.

    Since every decieer that gives an answer has stopped before reaching
    the end of the program, for which a complete simulation of it will, it
    just shows that it is wrong.

    Of course, you first have to fix the system so the input *IS* a
    program, which means that it includes the code of the decider it is
    built on, which means that decider need to also be a defined program.

    Thus, your LIES are exposed as just uses of strawmen to try to put
    forward incorrect conditions.

    Sorry, all you have been doing is show that your world is built on
    lies, and your brain seems to be based on straw.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Thus no DDD of any HHH/DDD pair halts when "halts"
    is defined as reaching a final halt state.

    HHH should not report whether its simulation halted, but whether he
    input specifies halting behaviour. A simulation that fails to reach the
    end does not count as halting.
    Similarly a computer that is hit by a sledge hammer, so that it cannot
    complete a program, does not prove that the program is non-halting, even
    if it did not reach the end.


    Since this *is* a verified fact any disagreement is
    inherently incorrect.

    We all agree that HHH fails reach the end.Pretending a disagreement on
    this point is dishonest.


    This same reasoning equally applies to the input to HHH(DD)

    int DD()
    {
      int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
      if (Halt_Status)
        HERE: goto HERE;
      return Halt_Status;
    }


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 17 11:44:27 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 05:07 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach >>>>>> a final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all
    the other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

       (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
       simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

       (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
       reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.

    Non-Halting isn't just that a partial simulation doesn't reach a final
    state, and that is what your (a) describes, as to be NOT partial, it
    must simulate *ALL* the instructions.

    The fuller definition of non-halting is that a machine is non-halting
    if it will not reach a final state performing an UNBOUNDED number of
    steps.


    In other words you do not understand what every CS graduate
    would understand: That once a non-halting behavior pattern
    is correctly matched in a finite number of steps that this
    conclusively proves non-halting.

    Irrelevant, because such a CS graduate will also understand that a
    finite recursion is not a pattern for non-halting behaviour.
    Your HHH has code to abort and halt, so there is no non-halting pattern
    in it, because it aborts after a finite number of recursions.
    Or are you still cheating with the Root variable?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 17 11:45:45 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 04:24 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach >>>>>> a final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all
    the other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

       (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
       simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

       (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
       reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.


    *In other words you understand that my words are irrefutable*


    Again using your dreams as a proof, is not different from a dogmatic
    assertion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Jun 17 21:22:48 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 6/16/25 10:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach >>>>>> a final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all
    the other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

       (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
       simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

       (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
       reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.


    *In other words you understand that my words are irrefutable*


    No, just lies.

    That you misinterpter them the way you do, just shows your stupidity.

    Your failure to even attempt to refute the errors pointed out is just
    your admittion that you ARE nothing but a stupid liar,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Jun 17 21:24:22 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 6/16/25 11:07 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that while,
    yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will not reach >>>>>> a final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does that, and all
    the other HHHs which differ see different inputs.


    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to answer
    by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

       (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
       simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

       (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
       reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.

    Non-Halting isn't just that a partial simulation doesn't reach a final
    state, and that is what your (a) describes, as to be NOT partial, it
    must simulate *ALL* the instructions.

    The fuller definition of non-halting is that a machine is non-halting
    if it will not reach a final state performing an UNBOUNDED number of
    steps.


    In other words you do not understand what every CS graduate
    would understand: That once a non-halting behavior pattern
    is correctly matched in a finite number of steps that this
    conclusively proves non-halting.


    But you didn't match an actual non-halting pattern, as shown by the fact
    that this pattern is seen inside the trace of a program you admit halts
    when run.

    How can you see a non-halting pattern in the trace of a halting program.

    All that shows is that you think it is ok to lie.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 18 11:59:41 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:24 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 16.jun.2025 om 18:58 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.
    HHH is incorrect

    Baseless dogmatic statements that are utterly bereft of any
    supporting reasoning at all DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS.

    Dreams that are utterly bereft of any supporting reasoning at all DO
    NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS.


    and there is no way to make a correct HHH for all inputs.


    THAT FACT THAT NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET THIS CHALLENGE
    IN SEVERAL YEARS IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE THAT I AM CORRECT.

    It has been proven that no correct HHH exists,

    Counter-factual, Not one person ever proved this.

    Wrong. It has been proven, but you close your eyes and pretend that
    the proofs do not exit. Very childish.


    I ignore most of your messages.

    Yes, you close your eyes for the errors presented to you and pretend
    that they do not exist.

    It is categorically impossible to show how DDD correctly
    simulated by simulating termination analyzer HHH can
    possibly reach its own simulated "return" statement final
    halt state.

    Indeed. No HHH exists that can do a correct simulation if DDD calling
    HHH itself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 18 11:36:05 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a recipe to
    draw a square circle does not count as a proof that square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even though the
    end is only one cycle further from the point where it gave up the
    simulation.

    The same pattern:
    You close your eyes for the errors shown to you and pretend that the do
    not exist.
    HHH is programmed to close its eyes for the specification in the input
    of a program with a reachable end and pretend the end does not exist.
    Very childish.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 18 12:06:40 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:12 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 05:07 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/16/25 2:32 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/16/2025 6:28 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 8:57 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 6/15/25 4:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    And it seems you don't understand that the problem is that
    while, yes, if HHH does infact do a correct simulation, it will >>>>>>>> not reach a final state, that fact only applie *IF* HHH does
    that, and all the other HHHs which differ see different inputs. >>>>>>>>

    *I should have said*
    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then DDD never reaches its simulated "return" statement
    final halt state.


    So?

    Since that isn't the criteria that the decider is supposed to
    answer by, it is just a strawman.


    *You merely dishonestly changed the subject*

    No I didn't, the subject is about "Halting"

    Halting is defined for PROGRAMS



    Whenever I challenge anyone to provide the details to show
    exactly how the below (a) & (b) is not true they ignore this
    challenge and change the subject.

       (a) One of more instructions of DDD are correctly
       simulated by some simulating termination analyzer HHH.

       (b) None of the above simulated DDD instances ever
       reach its own simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Since that isn't the definition of Halting/Non-Halting, it is just a
    strawman.

    Non-Halting isn't just that a partial simulation doesn't reach a
    final state, and that is what your (a) describes, as to be NOT
    partial, it must simulate *ALL* the instructions.

    The fuller definition of non-halting is that a machine is non-
    halting if it will not reach a final state performing an UNBOUNDED
    number of steps.


    In other words you do not understand what every CS graduate
    would understand: That once a non-halting behavior pattern
    is correctly matched in a finite number of steps that this
    conclusively proves non-halting.

    Irrelevant, because such a CS graduate will also understand that a
    finite recursion is not a pattern for non-halting behaviour.

    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
      HERE: goto HERE;
      return;
    }

    void Infinite_Recursion()
    {
      Infinite_Recursion();
      return;
    }

    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    When correctly simulated by HHH none of the above can
    possibly reach their own simulated "return" instruction
    final halt state in any finite number of steps.

    For the first two, these ere clearly non-halting programs.
    But for DDD, this is a failure of HHH. Other world-class simulators are perfectly able to reach the end of exactly the same program specified in exactly the same input.
    Is the difference between DDD and the other programs over your head?
    Why repeating this failure of HHH again and again?


    void Finite_Recursion (int N) {
    if (N > 0) Finite_Recursion (N - 1);
    printf ("Olcott thinks this is never printed.\n");
    }

    A correct simulation will reach the end without the need to abort.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 19 10:55:45 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a recipe to
    draw a square circle does not count as a proof that square circles
    exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even though the
    end is only one cycle further from the point where it gave up the
    simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so that when
    the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one cycle away from
    the same point.
    Closing your eyes for verified facts and pretending that they do not
    exist is very childish.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 20 11:42:42 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a recipe to >>>>>> draw a square circle does not count as a proof that square circles >>>>>> exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even though
    the end is only one cycle further from the point where it gave up
    the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so that
    when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one cycle
    away from the same point.

    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is.
    First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this.
    All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for you to
    learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it.
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so that when
    the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one cycle away from
    the same point.
    The failure to reach that point of the simulation is a property of the simulator, not of the program specified in the input.

    Try to learn from your errors. The resistance against learning will keep
    you stuck in your incorrect reasoning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 22 18:01:56 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 20.jun.2025 om 16:53 schreef olcott:
    On 6/20/2025 4:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly
    how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination >>>>>>>>>>> analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return" >>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state they ignore this challenge.

    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a recipe >>>>>>>> to draw a square circle does not count as a proof that square
    circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even though
    the end is only one cycle further from the point where it gave up
    the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and
    halt, the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so
    that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one
    cycle away from the same point.

    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is.
    First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this.
    All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for you to
    learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it.
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so that
    when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one cycle
    away from the same point.

    Yes this is factual.

    *This is only ordinary computer programming with*
    *no theory of computation computer science required*

    Every simulated HHH remains one cycle behind its simulator
    no matter how deep the recursive simulations go. This means
    that the outermost directly executed HHH reaches its abort
    criteria first.

    And it fails to see that the simulated HHH would reach exactly the same
    abort criteria one cycle later.
    In this way, it misses the fact that it is simulating an HHH that would
    abort and halt.


    This means that none of simulated HHH have reached their
    abort criteria. This means that their own abort code is
    unreachable at the point where the outermost HHH would
    abort.

    They do not reach its, even if the abort criteria are reachable, because
    the simulator halts its simulation too soon. That is not the behaviour
    of the program specified in the input, but erroneous behaviour of the simulator.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 23 10:24:58 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 22.jun.2025 om 21:27 schreef olcott:
    On 6/22/2025 11:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 20.jun.2025 om 16:53 schreef olcott:
    On 6/20/2025 4:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly >>>>>>>>>>>>> how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination >>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return" >>>>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state they ignore this challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting
    reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a
    recipe to draw a square circle does not count as a proof that >>>>>>>>>> square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even
    though the end is only one cycle further from the point where it >>>>>>>> gave up the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and
    halt, the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH,
    so that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only
    one cycle away from the same point.

    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is.
    First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this.
    All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for you
    to learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it.
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so that
    when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one cycle
    away from the same point.

    Yes this is factual.

    *This is only ordinary computer programming with*
    *no theory of computation computer science required*

    Every simulated HHH remains one cycle behind its simulator
    no matter how deep the recursive simulations go. This means
    that the outermost directly executed HHH reaches its abort
    criteria first.

    And it fails to see that the simulated HHH would reach exactly the
    same abort criteria one cycle later.
    In this way, it misses the fact that it is simulating an HHH that
    would abort and halt.


    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
      HERE: goto HERE;
      printf("Fred Zwarts can't understand this is never reached\n");
    }

    Another claim without any evidence.

    Olcott does not understand that his HHH does not see an infinite loop.
    It aborts and halt, so the recursion is finite. But as soon Olcott sees
    a one or two level recursions he starts to dream about a hypothetical
    infinite recursion. For him, his dreams are facts, and he thinks that is correct criteria for an infinite recursion pattern. So he programs his
    HHH to aborts and to report non-halting. He forgets to count the many conditional branch instructions when HHH is simulating itself.

    void Finite_Recursion (int N) {
    if (N > 0) Finite_Recursion (N - 1);
    printf ("Olcott thinks this is never printed.\n");
    }

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 24 09:54:33 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 23.jun.2025 om 16:50 schreef olcott:
    On 6/23/2025 3:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 22.jun.2025 om 21:27 schreef olcott:
    On 6/22/2025 11:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 20.jun.2025 om 16:53 schreef olcott:
    On 6/20/2025 4:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state they ignore this challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper.

    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a >>>>>>>>>>>> recipe to draw a square circle does not count as a proof >>>>>>>>>>>> that square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to
    show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH
    then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even >>>>>>>>>> though the end is only one cycle further from the point where >>>>>>>>>> it gave up the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and >>>>>>>> halt, the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating
    HHH, so that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH >>>>>>>> is only one cycle away from the same point.

    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is.
    First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this.
    All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for you >>>>>> to learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it.
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and halt, >>>>>> the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so
    that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only one >>>>>> cycle away from the same point.

    Yes this is factual.

    *This is only ordinary computer programming with*
    *no theory of computation computer science required*

    Every simulated HHH remains one cycle behind its simulator
    no matter how deep the recursive simulations go. This means
    that the outermost directly executed HHH reaches its abort
    criteria first.

    And it fails to see that the simulated HHH would reach exactly the
    same abort criteria one cycle later.
    In this way, it misses the fact that it is simulating an HHH that
    would abort and halt.


    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
       HERE: goto HERE;
       printf("Fred Zwarts can't understand this is never reached\n");
    }

    Another claim without any evidence.

    Olcott does not understand that his HHH does not see an infinite loop.
    It aborts and halt, so the recursion is finite.

    You didn't even use the term recursion correctly.
    Infinite loops have nothing to do with recursion.

    And infinite loops have nothing to do with a simulator simulating
    itself. Therefore, talking about infinite loops is changing the subject.

    Mike understands that HHH could recognize an infinite
    loop correctly.

       The process in which a function calls itself directly
       or indirectly is called recursion and the corresponding
       function is called a recursive function. https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/introduction-to-recursion-2/

    Lines 987 to 992 is where infinite loops are recognized
    Lines 996 to 1005 is where infinite recursion is recognized https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c

    HHH correctly emulates the x86 machine code of its
    input until one of those two patterns is matched.

    But there is a bug in the code that tries to recognise an infinite
    recursion. It forgets to count the conditional branch instructions when simulating the simulator. In this way it fails to do a correct analysis
    of the code that specifies the abort, which makes the recursion finite.
    Because of this bug it 'recognises' an infinite recursion, when there is
    only a finite recursion.
    The x86 machine code also specifies the abort code and the halting
    behaviour of the input, but HHH is blind for that part of the specification.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 25 09:59:48 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:
    On 6/24/2025 2:54 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 23.jun.2025 om 16:50 schreef olcott:
    On 6/23/2025 3:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 22.jun.2025 om 21:27 schreef olcott:
    On 6/22/2025 11:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 20.jun.2025 om 16:53 schreef olcott:
    On 6/20/2025 4:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating termination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated "return" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement final halt state they ignore this challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic
    assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipe to draw a square circle does not count as a proof >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details
    of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly
    simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>> then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its
    simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even >>>>>>>>>>>> though the end is only one cycle further from the point >>>>>>>>>>>> where it gave up the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort >>>>>>>>>> and halt, the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the
    simulating HHH, so that when the simulating HHH aborts, the >>>>>>>>>> simulated HHH is only one cycle away from the same point.

    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is. >>>>>>>>> First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this. >>>>>>>>> All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for >>>>>>>> you to learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it. >>>>>>>> Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort and >>>>>>>> halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so >>>>>>>> that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only >>>>>>>> one cycle away from the same point.

    Yes this is factual.

    *This is only ordinary computer programming with*
    *no theory of computation computer science required*

    Every simulated HHH remains one cycle behind its simulator
    no matter how deep the recursive simulations go. This means
    that the outermost directly executed HHH reaches its abort
    criteria first.

    And it fails to see that the simulated HHH would reach exactly the >>>>>> same abort criteria one cycle later.
    In this way, it misses the fact that it is simulating an HHH that
    would abort and halt.


    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
       HERE: goto HERE;
       printf("Fred Zwarts can't understand this is never reached\n"); >>>>> }

    Another claim without any evidence.

    Olcott does not understand that his HHH does not see an infinite loop. >>>> It aborts and halt, so the recursion is finite.

    You didn't even use the term recursion correctly.
    Infinite loops have nothing to do with recursion.

    And infinite loops have nothing to do with a simulator simulating
    itself. Therefore, talking about infinite loops is changing the subject.

    Mike understands that HHH could recognize an infinite
    loop correctly.

        The process in which a function calls itself directly
        or indirectly is called recursion and the corresponding
        function is called a recursive function.
    https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/introduction-to-recursion-2/

    Lines 987 to 992 is where infinite loops are recognized
    Lines 996 to 1005 is where infinite recursion is recognized
    https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c

    HHH correctly emulates the x86 machine code of its
    input until one of those two patterns is matched.

    But there is a bug in the code that tries to recognise an infinite
    recursion.

    There is no bug. Quit your defamation.

    It forgets to count the conditional branch instructions when
    simulating the simulator.

    *It does not forget them. They are irrelevant*
    False claim without evidence.
    That is the bug. They determine the behaviour of the program specified
    by the input. Therefore, they are relevant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 26 11:16:24 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:
    On 6/24/2025 2:54 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 23.jun.2025 om 16:50 schreef olcott:
    On 6/23/2025 3:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 22.jun.2025 om 21:27 schreef olcott:
    On 6/22/2025 11:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 20.jun.2025 om 16:53 schreef olcott:
    On 6/20/2025 4:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 19.jun.2025 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
    On 6/19/2025 3:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 18.jun.2025 om 17:41 schreef olcott:
    On 6/18/2025 4:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 16:36 schreef olcott:
    On 6/17/2025 4:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 17.jun.2025 om 00:26 schreef olcott:
    On 6/16/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 15.jun.2025 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When I challenge anyone to show the details of exactly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how DDD correctly simulated by ANY simulating >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination
    analyzer HHH can possibly reach its own simulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "return"
    statement final halt state they ignore this challenge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It seems very difficult for you to read.
    We clearly stated that the challenge is improper. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Are you too stupid to understand that dogmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assertions that are utterly bereft of any supporting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning DO NOT COUNT AS REBUTTALS ???

    No, you are too stupid to realise that challenging for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipe to draw a square circle does not count as a proof >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that square circles exist.


    Claiming that I made a mistake with no ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show this mistake is DISHONEST.


    Indeed, but irrelevant,

    That alternative is that you are dishonest.
    When you claim that I am wrong and have
    no ability to show how and where I am wrong
    this would seem to make you a liar.

    No one has ever even attempted to show the details >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of how this is not correct:

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    When one or more instructions of DDD are correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by ANY simulating termination analyzer HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then this correctly simulated DDD never reaches its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated "return" statement final halt state.

    Indeed, HHH fails to reach the end of the simulation, even >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though the end is only one cycle further from the point >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it gave up the simulation.


    That is counter-factual and over-your-head.


    No evidence presented for this claim. Dreaming again?
    Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort >>>>>>>>>>>> and halt, the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the
    simulating HHH, so that when the simulating HHH aborts, the >>>>>>>>>>>> simulated HHH is only one cycle away from the same point. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Proving that you do not understand what unreachable code is. >>>>>>>>>>> First year CS students and EE majors may not understand this. >>>>>>>>>>> All CS graduates would understand this.

    That you do not understand what I write makes it difficult for >>>>>>>>>> you to learn from your errors.
    It is not that difficult. Try again and pay full attention to it. >>>>>>>>>> Even a beginner understands that when HHH has code to abort >>>>>>>>>> and halt,
    the simulated HHH runs one cycle behind the simulating HHH, so >>>>>>>>>> that when the simulating HHH aborts, the simulated HHH is only >>>>>>>>>> one cycle away from the same point.

    Yes this is factual.

    *This is only ordinary computer programming with*
    *no theory of computation computer science required*

    Every simulated HHH remains one cycle behind its simulator
    no matter how deep the recursive simulations go. This means
    that the outermost directly executed HHH reaches its abort
    criteria first.

    And it fails to see that the simulated HHH would reach exactly >>>>>>>> the same abort criteria one cycle later.
    In this way, it misses the fact that it is simulating an HHH
    that would abort and halt.


    void Infinite_Loop()
    {
       HERE: goto HERE;
       printf("Fred Zwarts can't understand this is never reached\n"); >>>>>>> }

    Another claim without any evidence.

    Olcott does not understand that his HHH does not see an infinite
    loop.
    It aborts and halt, so the recursion is finite.

    You didn't even use the term recursion correctly.
    Infinite loops have nothing to do with recursion.

    And infinite loops have nothing to do with a simulator simulating
    itself. Therefore, talking about infinite loops is changing the
    subject.

    Mike understands that HHH could recognize an infinite
    loop correctly.

        The process in which a function calls itself directly
        or indirectly is called recursion and the corresponding
        function is called a recursive function.
    https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/introduction-to-recursion-2/

    Lines 987 to 992 is where infinite loops are recognized
    Lines 996 to 1005 is where infinite recursion is recognized
    https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c

    HHH correctly emulates the x86 machine code of its
    input until one of those two patterns is matched.

    But there is a bug in the code that tries to recognise an infinite
    recursion.

    There is no bug. Quit your defamation.

    It forgets to count the conditional branch instructions when
    simulating the simulator.

    *It does not forget them. They are irrelevant*

    False claim without evidence.
    That is the bug. They determine the behaviour of the program specified
    by the input. Therefore, they are relevant.

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement.

    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.

    Since this is what is being measured then conditional branch
    instructions within HHH are irrelevant.
    No, because not counting the conditional branch instructions makes HHH
    blind for its own halting behaviour and in this way for the halting
    behaviour of DDD that calls HHH.
    Making HHH blind for the halting behaviour specified in the input, does
    not change the specification. It only makes HHH wrong about its conclusion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 28 10:50:41 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement.

    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.
    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting
    behaviour of the program specified in the input. Even a beginner can see
    that the input is a pointer to code, including the code to abort and
    halt. But HHH is programmed to ignore the conditional branch
    instructions, when simulating itself, so it thinks that there is an
    infinite loop when there are only a finite number of recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are infinite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 29 12:38:32 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 28.jun.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:
    On 6/28/2025 3:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement.

    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.

    Ah so you don't know what recursion is.

    As usual a false claim without evidence.


    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting
    behaviour of the program specified in the input.

    If you don't even know what recursion is then
    you are totally unqualified to review these things.

    And since the condition in the 'if' fails, the conclusion is not true.


    Even a beginner can see that the input is a pointer to code, including
    the code to abort and halt. But HHH is programmed to ignore the
    conditional branch instructions, when simulating itself, so it thinks
    that there is an infinite loop when there are only a finite number of
    recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are infinite.

    When the measure is whether or not DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH can possibly reach its own "return"
    instruction final halt state nothing inside HHH can
    possibly have any effect on this.

    That you don't know this proves that you are unqualified
    to review my work.
    The failure of HHH is an incorrect measure for the halting behaviour
    specified in the input.
    That you do not understand this explains your invalid claims.
    The halting behaviour of the input can be analysed by several other
    methods and they show that HHH is incorrect in its analysis.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 30 09:40:44 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 29.jun.2025 om 15:46 schreef olcott:
    On 6/29/2025 5:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:
    On 6/28/2025 3:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement.

    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.

    Ah so you don't know what recursion is.

    As usual a false claim without evidence.


    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting
    behaviour of the program specified in the input.

    If you don't even know what recursion is then
    you are totally unqualified to review these things.

    And since the condition in the 'if' fails, the conclusion is not true.


    Even a beginner can see that the input is a pointer to code,
    including the code to abort and halt. But HHH is programmed to
    ignore the conditional branch instructions, when simulating itself,
    so it thinks that there is an infinite loop when there are only a
    finite number of recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are infinite.

    When the measure is whether or not DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH can possibly reach its own "return"
    instruction final halt state nothing inside HHH can
    possibly have any effect on this.

    That you don't know this proves that you are unqualified
    to review my work.
    The failure of HHH is an incorrect measure for the halting behaviour
    specified in the input.
    That you do not understand this explains your invalid claims.
    The halting behaviour of the input can be analysed by several other
    methods and they show that HHH is incorrect in its analysis.



    No Turing machine can ever report on the behavior of
    any directly executing Turing Machine because no TM
    can ever take another directly executing Turing Machine
    as its input.
    There is no need to report about another Turing Machine. It only needs
    to report about its input. In this case the input includes the abort
    code and in this way specifies a halting program.
    If the simulator is unable to see that, that does not change the
    specification, but only demonstrates the failure of the simulator.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 1 11:11:54 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 30.jun.2025 om 19:22 schreef olcott:
    On 6/30/2025 2:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 29.jun.2025 om 15:46 schreef olcott:
    On 6/29/2025 5:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:
    On 6/28/2025 3:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement. >>>>>>>>
    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.

    Ah so you don't know what recursion is.

    As usual a false claim without evidence.


    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting
    behaviour of the program specified in the input.

    If you don't even know what recursion is then
    you are totally unqualified to review these things.

    And since the condition in the 'if' fails, the conclusion is not true. >>>>

    Even a beginner can see that the input is a pointer to code,
    including the code to abort and halt. But HHH is programmed to
    ignore the conditional branch instructions, when simulating
    itself, so it thinks that there is an infinite loop when there are >>>>>> only a finite number of recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are infinite. >>>>>
    When the measure is whether or not DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH can possibly reach its own "return"
    instruction final halt state nothing inside HHH can
    possibly have any effect on this.

    That you don't know this proves that you are unqualified
    to review my work.
    The failure of HHH is an incorrect measure for the halting behaviour
    specified in the input.
    That you do not understand this explains your invalid claims.
    The halting behaviour of the input can be analysed by several other
    methods and they show that HHH is incorrect in its analysis.



    No Turing machine can ever report on the behavior of
    any directly executing Turing Machine because no TM
    can ever take another directly executing Turing Machine
    as its input.
    There is no need to report about another Turing Machine. It only needs
    to report about its input.

    Then the fact that DDD() halts does not contradict the
    fact that the input to HHH(DDD) specifies non-halting
    behavior because the directly executed DDD() is outside
    of the domain of HHH.

    A usual claims without evidence.
    There is no contradiction, because the input for the aborting HHH
    specifies a DDD that calls the aborting HHH, which makes that the input specifies a halting program. Of course. The semantics of the x86
    language allow for only one behaviour. Therefore, the specification
    agrees with the direct execution. Direct execution is only a proof for
    what is specified in the input.
    That HHH is programmed with bugs, so that it aborts before it reaches
    that final halt state, does not change the specification of a halting
    program.
    The non-halting property is a property of the simulator, not of the
    program specified in the input.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 1 11:17:56 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 30.jun.2025 om 19:08 schreef olcott:
    On 6/30/2025 2:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 29.jun.2025 om 15:46 schreef olcott:
    On 6/29/2025 5:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:
    On 6/28/2025 3:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement. >>>>>>>>
    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.

    Ah so you don't know what recursion is.

    As usual a false claim without evidence.


    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting
    behaviour of the program specified in the input.

    If you don't even know what recursion is then
    you are totally unqualified to review these things.

    And since the condition in the 'if' fails, the conclusion is not true. >>>>

    Even a beginner can see that the input is a pointer to code,
    including the code to abort and halt. But HHH is programmed to
    ignore the conditional branch instructions, when simulating
    itself, so it thinks that there is an infinite loop when there are >>>>>> only a finite number of recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are infinite. >>>>>
    When the measure is whether or not DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH can possibly reach its own "return"
    instruction final halt state nothing inside HHH can
    possibly have any effect on this.

    That you don't know this proves that you are unqualified
    to review my work.
    The failure of HHH is an incorrect measure for the halting behaviour
    specified in the input.
    That you do not understand this explains your invalid claims.
    The halting behaviour of the input can be analysed by several other
    methods and they show that HHH is incorrect in its analysis.



    No Turing machine can ever report on the behavior of
    any directly executing Turing Machine because no TM
    can ever take another directly executing Turing Machine
    as its input.
    There is no need to report about another Turing Machine.

    The conventional halting problem proof incorrectly requires this.



    As usual repeated claims without evidence.

    void DDD()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      return;
    }

    int main()
    {
      HHH(DDD);
      DDD();
    }

    When the input to HHH(DDD) is correctly simulated
    by HHH then HHH correctly rejects this input as
    specifying non-halting behavior.

    No, it *incorrectly* does that. The input is DDD calling an aborting
    HHH, so the input specifies a halting program.


    The directly executed DDD() halts yet is not and cannot
    be an input to HHH, thus it outside of the domain of HHH.

    Irrelevant. It is only relevant that the input specifies a halting program.


     It only needs to report about its input. In this case the input
    includes the abort code and in this way specifies a halting program.

    You keep getting confused about the program under test here.
    If HHH was the program under test the the internals of HHH
    would be relevant.

    You keep confused by combining the program under test with the input.
    Not the program under test is under test, but the code of the program
    under test is part of the input. The whole input is under test. This
    code cannot be replaced by other hypothetical code with different behaviour.


    Since DDD is the program under test and HHH remains a pure
    simulator of DDD until HHH correctly determines that DDD
    correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
    simulated "return" statement final halt state, the internals
    of HHH cease to be relevant.

    And this behaviour to abort and halt, is part of the code given as input
    to the simulator.
    That HHH has bugs to ignore that part of the code, does not change the
    fact that that part of the code is also under test, because it is used
    by DDD.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred. Zwarts@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 2 10:43:05 2025
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    Op 01.jul.2025 om 14:44 schreef olcott:
    On 7/1/2025 4:17 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 30.jun.2025 om 19:08 schreef olcott:
    On 6/30/2025 2:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 29.jun.2025 om 15:46 schreef olcott:
    On 6/29/2025 5:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:
    On 6/28/2025 3:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 28.jun.2025 om 01:30 schreef olcott:
    On 6/26/2025 4:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 25.jun.2025 om 16:09 schreef olcott:
    On 6/25/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 24.jun.2025 om 16:06 schreef olcott:

    None of the code in HHH can possibly cause DDD correctly >>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH to reach its own simulated "return" statement. >>>>>>>>>>
    Yes, exactly, that is the bug.


    Recursive emulation is only a tiny bit more complicated
    than recursion yet no one here seems to have a clue.
    Do you know what recursion is?
    (If you don't that would explain a lot)
    As usual irrelevant claims without evidence. No rebuttal.

    Ah so you don't know what recursion is.

    As usual a false claim without evidence.


    HHH has a bug that makes that it does not recognise the halting >>>>>>>> behaviour of the program specified in the input.

    If you don't even know what recursion is then
    you are totally unqualified to review these things.

    And since the condition in the 'if' fails, the conclusion is not
    true.


    Even a beginner can see that the input is a pointer to code,
    including the code to abort and halt. But HHH is programmed to >>>>>>>> ignore the conditional branch instructions, when simulating
    itself, so it thinks that there is an infinite loop when there >>>>>>>> are only a finite number of recursions.
    But Olcott does not understand that not all recursions are
    infinite.

    When the measure is whether or not DDD correctly
    simulated by HHH can possibly reach its own "return"
    instruction final halt state nothing inside HHH can
    possibly have any effect on this.

    That you don't know this proves that you are unqualified
    to review my work.
    The failure of HHH is an incorrect measure for the halting
    behaviour specified in the input.
    That you do not understand this explains your invalid claims.
    The halting behaviour of the input can be analysed by several
    other methods and they show that HHH is incorrect in its analysis. >>>>>>


    No Turing machine can ever report on the behavior of
    any directly executing Turing Machine because no TM
    can ever take another directly executing Turing Machine
    as its input.
    There is no need to report about another Turing Machine.

    The conventional halting problem proof incorrectly requires this.



    As usual repeated claims without evidence.

    void DDD()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       return;
    }

    int main()
    {
       HHH(DDD);
       DDD();
    }

    When the input to HHH(DDD) is correctly simulated
    by HHH then HHH correctly rejects this input as
    specifying non-halting behavior.

    No, it *incorrectly* does that. The input is DDD calling an aborting
    HHH, so the input specifies a halting program.


    DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly
    reach its own "return" instruction final halt state
    that DOES NOT HALT TO MATTER WHAT THE F YOU CALL IT.

    As usual claims without evidence. (Shouting is no evidence.)
    The input for HHH has code to abort and halt, so this input specifies a
    halting program.
    If HHH fails to reach that final halt state, that does not change the specification.
    The input specifies a halting program, no matter what HHH can see of it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)