• time synchronization program when offline?

    From Jake M@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 25 14:58:51 2024
    I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time
    synchronization when offline. I have a program that needs such
    synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going
    to have net access. Thanks in advance.

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Tue Jun 25 18:07:15 2024
    Mike Easter wrote:
    I'll add some precision info as I can find it.

    I found out about NIST's dialup ACTS. I still have analog modems around
    here that can use my conventional home POTS, but that home POTS line
    actually goes over internet, ie VoIP system.

    I understand there are devices that can get the GPS time, but I think
    they are pricey and may need some kind of antenna.

    https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/automated-computer-time-service-acts


    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Jake M on Tue Jun 25 17:38:46 2024
    Jake M wrote:
    I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time
    synchronization when offline.  I have a program that needs such synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going
    to have net access.  Thanks in advance.

    I think we need some more specifics here.

    Let us go from the normal situation and then try to expand it to your
    specific request.

    The normal situation is that the computer has its own internal clock
    chip, and conventionally sync/s itself w/ online NTP, whereas the
    'normal' situation for devices such as phones get their time sync/s from
    GPS + cell towers.

    One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
    of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to 'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
    of precision you want or why or 'how often'.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Tue Jun 25 17:55:16 2024
    Mike Easter wrote:
    One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
    of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to 'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
    of precision you want or why or 'how often'.

    I'll add some precision info as I can find it.

    The conventional clock chip has 'similar' tech to an average digital
    watch, which might be a second per day off, possibly minutes over a
    year, altho' my present cheap digital watch is a few seconds per half
    year, when I correct it. I don't know the current inaccuracy of any of
    my computers which use NTP.

    Previously I had a so-called 'atomic clock' in the house, which sync/ed
    itself off the radio signal from Fort Collins CO US each day, and
    maintained time w/ a typical quartz crystal.

    So, I'm back to my 'original' qx; what kind of precision do you
    currently have and what kind of precision do you think you need?

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Tue Jun 25 21:09:55 2024
    On 6/25/24 8:38 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
    Jake M wrote:
    I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time synchronization when offline.  I have a program that needs such synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going to have net access.  Thanks in advance.

    I think we need some more specifics here.

    Let us go from the normal situation and then try to expand it to your specific request.

    The normal situation is that the computer has its own internal clock chip, and conventionally sync/s itself w/ online NTP, whereas the 'normal' situation for devices such as phones get their time sync/s from GPS + cell towers.

    One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to 'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind of precision you want or why or 'how
    often'.


    Meinburg plus a GPS might work.

    A GPS with a PPS (pulse per second) signal.

    The tricky part, is getting the PPS signal to
    come in, on a low latency interrupt.

    If you refuse to wire up the PPS signal, and
    use TX/RX/GND, then the synchronization is good
    to "a fraction of a second". With the right hardware
    for PPS, you could be good for 100usec or so. The
    hardware could get you 100nsec, but it is difficult to
    assign a jitter number for the interrupt handling.

    https://www.adafruit.com/product/746 # pin header, VIN/TX/RX/GND to TTL level serial port
    # (My attempt to modify a serial port card PCIe has been a flop...)

    https://www.adafruit.com/product/4279 # USB interface, plug and play. PPS on Ring Indicator, needs
    # a matching driver to make it work. This might help a purchaser
    # avoid soldering iron work.

    The GPS module can pick up a strong signal from only
    two satellites, if you leave it in the house on
    the window sill. They make an active antenna cable,
    for extending the "reach" of the module, so more
    satellites can be seen. This would require a hole
    in the window (nope, not gonna do that :-) ).

    I've had mine working, it's just I'm trying to
    get to better than USB polling interval on
    clock sync. USB2 polls every 125usec, which is
    why the output is a bit sloppy. PCIe interrupts
    (inband messages) have very low latency by comparison.

    The module uses a 1GHz clock internally, so the
    re-sampled edge of PPS should have a jitter of 1 nanosecond
    or the like. This might be receive frequency divided by
    two or so.

    This is better than the 50 millisecond uncertainty of
    NTP network sync.

    The computer protocols, only need 1 second accuracy
    for any sensitive network storage purposes. Any of the
    schemes will do that for you (no PPS needed) -- the
    rest of it is an ego trip :-) It's no fun having
    a module with great potential, if you cannot get it
    to deliver as intended.

    Paul

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 25 21:58:20 2024
    On 6/25/24 9:32 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 17:38:46 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

    One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
    of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to
    'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
    of precision you want or why or 'how often'.

    Years ago we had clients that used products like this:

    https://www.masterclock.com/ntp-server-100-gps.html

    Leitch was one player and the unit had a serial interface.. They weren't cheap but with an air gapped system it was the only way to go.


    It starts with a good web site.

    http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html

    Paul

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 01:32:37 2024
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 17:38:46 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

    One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
    of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to 'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
    of precision you want or why or 'how often'.

    Years ago we had clients that used products like this:

    https://www.masterclock.com/ntp-server-100-gps.html

    Leitch was one player and the unit had a serial interface.. They weren't
    cheap but with an air gapped system it was the only way to go.

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Paul on Tue Jun 25 19:09:39 2024
    Paul wrote:
    It starts with a good web site.

    http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html

    I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 05:19:53 2024
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 19:09:39 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

    Paul wrote:
    It starts with a good web site.

    http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html

    I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.

    https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2017/10/my-wwvb-radio-clock.html

    That's the old school approach using a WWVB receiver. I don't know if it
    would be any more reliable than GPS inside a structure. When I was
    developing an AVL interface I could never get a lock with a USB hockey
    puck type GPS receiver in my office.

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 26 03:36:01 2024
    On 6/26/2024 1:19 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 19:09:39 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

    Paul wrote:
    It starts with a good web site.

    http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html

    I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.

    https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2017/10/my-wwvb-radio-clock.html

    That's the old school approach using a WWVB receiver. I don't know if it would be any more reliable than GPS inside a structure. When I was
    developing an AVL interface I could never get a lock with a USB hockey
    puck type GPS receiver in my office.


    You don't necessarily have reception all day long.

    https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm

    Both GPS and WWVB have their issues. It's an acquired taste.

    Paul

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Paul on Wed Jun 26 08:01:01 2024
    Paul wrote:
    You don't necessarily have reception all day long.

    https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm

    My old 'atomic' clock, quartz + radio, typically sync/ed itself in early morning hours when it could get that radio signal best; it was placed by
    a window that it could see the sky between itself & CO US. It had a
    little symbol on its display that indicated it had been sync/ed on a
    daily basis, so if that symbol wasn't showing, the current time was
    quartz time. That was an aid in clock placement.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 08:42:14 2024
    Mike Easter wrote:
    I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.

    There's more on this concept at another site:

    This post details how to create a stratum-1 NTP Server using a
    Raspberry Pi utilizing GPS and PPS, and get time within 100
    nanoseconds of real time, directly from the atomic clocks located in
    the GPS satellites above your head. The best part about this guide is
    that this will work with no internet.

    Besides the PPS (serial), he also/alternatively does it via USB of less precision.

    https://blog.networkprofile.org/gps-backed-local-ntp-server/
    GPS Raspberry Pi NTP Server

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 08:49:44 2024
    Mike Easter wrote:
    Mike Easter wrote:
    I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.

    There's more on this concept at another site:

    It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if one
    gets away from microseconds in favor of milliseconds and economy:

    Millisecond accurate Chrony NTP with a USB GPS for $12 USD

    https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/09/29/millisecond-accurate-chrony-ntp-with-a-usb-gps-for-12-usd/?ref=blog.networkprofile.org

    and vid ref + useful comments at the above.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Paul on Wed Jun 26 17:01:35 2024
    On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 03:36:01 -0400, Paul wrote:

    You don't necessarily have reception all day long.

    https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm

    Both GPS and WWVB have their issues. It's an acquired taste.

    Definitely. In fact WWVB lost their south antenna in a windstorm last
    month. They are supposed to have it back on line this month. You can roll
    the dice with one of the WWV/WWVH frequencies too.

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 26 10:19:06 2024
    rbowman wrote:
    In fact WWVB lost their south antenna in a windstorm last
    month. They are supposed to have it back on line this month. You can roll
    the dice with one of the WWV/WWVH frequencies too.

    Long story here https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb

    wp
    In 2011, NIST estimated the number of radio clocks and wristwatches equipped with a WWVB receiver at over 50 million.

    I wonder what that number is this decade. The funding is threatened.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Grant Taylor@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 23:15:03 2024
    On 6/26/24 10:49, Mike Easter wrote:
    Millisecond accurate Chrony NTP with a USB GPS for $12 USD

    https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/09/29/millisecond-accurate-chrony-ntp-with-a-usb-gps-for-12-usd/?ref=blog.networkprofile.org

    There's a follow up post:

    Link - Microsecond accurate NTP with a Raspberry Pi and PPS GPS -
    Austin's Nerdy Things
    - https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/04/19/microsecond-accurate-ntp-with-a-raspberry-pi-and-pps-gps/



    --
    Grant. . . .

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  • From Grant Taylor@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Wed Jun 26 23:10:15 2024
    On 6/26/24 10:49, Mike Easter wrote:
    It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if one
    gets away from microseconds in favor of milliseconds and economy:

    Damn.

    and vid ref + useful comments at the above.

    I know what I'll be doing as time and funds permit in the next month.



    --
    Grant. . . .

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Grant Taylor on Thu Jun 27 08:50:17 2024
    Grant Taylor wrote:
    There's a follow up post:

    Yes, he actually did that one earlier. Apr/Sep.

    I have an old Pi 3B+, but I don't have a special need for time like
    that. I do like to read about time related things, particularly the
    progress in atomic clocks. And old progress in clocks in general.

    The OP has seemingly disappeared, so we don't know what situation he was
    trying to solve.

    --
    Mike Easter

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  • From Mike Easter@21:1/5 to Mike Easter on Thu Jun 27 10:14:12 2024
    Mike Easter wrote:
    It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if
    one gets away from microseconds in favor of milliseconds and
    economy:

    Going in the other direction than economy, if one wants to spend some,
    there is now a rack-mount 'atomic' clock (optical actually):

    EG-30 introduces a new performance class to commercial timing
    markets, offering 25 femtosecond stability (0.000000000000025 s) at
    one second, and multiday, sub-nanosecond holdover

    The 3U package is easily carried by a single user, fits standard
    server racks, and offers simple set-up: plug it into a wall socket,
    press start, and the clock is running in minutes.

    If you have to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it :-)
    (we often say about yachts and such).

    Vector Atomic brings world’s first rackmount optical clock to market

    https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231113157771/en/Vector-Atomic-brings-world%E2%80%99s-first-rackmount-optical-clock-to-market

    --
    Mike Easter

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