If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will
be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor
desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but
could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old
and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get
decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an
optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we avoid Dell altogether?

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On 7/9/22 05:44, Chris wrote:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will
be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old
and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we avoid Dell altogether?

Well I get very good sesrvice from my second hand DELL Latititude notebooks and laptop. I have a E6520, currently waiting for
memory upgrade, a E6540 with minor problems and this E7450. You can
see what OS I run in my next few lines. Dell used to provide a laptop
with Ubuntu intalled but that is not my favorite. Over on the PCLinux
forum lots of people are using both Dell Precisions of an age in
notebook and desktop form factors. That is the information I wanted
to share with you now for the Advertising. PCLinux is a Rolling Release
with a variety of long term support kernels as well as my current
Linux 5.18.10 . It has a small team supported by donations.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS,
the Perfect Computer Linux Operating System(for me),
and a minor case of hypergraphia.
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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Am 09.07.22 um 14:44 schrieb Chris:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will
be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old
and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we avoid Dell altogether?

Last year I bought a Dell Inspiron XPS-9310 with a preinstalled Ubuntu.
Cost roughly $1200 (CHG 1100). Perfect and easy to use solution. In
general HP and Dell are well supported by Distros or if you want vice versa.

If that is too expensive look for a used machine. Avoid machines with
old fashioned optical devices and harddrives. Look for machines with a SSDs.


--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

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Bobbie Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:

On 7/9/22 05:44, Chris wrote:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will >> be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor
desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but
could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old
and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get
decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an
optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we >> avoid Dell altogether?

Well I get very good sesrvice from my second hand DELL Latititude notebooks and laptop. I have a E6520, currently waiting for
memory upgrade, a E6540 with minor problems and this E7450. You can
see what OS I run in my next few lines. Dell used to provide a laptop
with Ubuntu intalled but that is not my favorite. Over on the PCLinux
forum lots of people are using both Dell Precisions of an age in
notebook and desktop form factors. That is the information I wanted
to share with you now for the Advertising.

Thanks.

PCLinux is a Rolling Release
with a variety of long term support kernels as well as my current
Linux 5.18.10 . It has a small team supported by donations.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS,
the Perfect Computer Linux Operating System(for me),
and a minor case of hypergraphia.

Thanks but we're quite happy with Xubuntu.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Chris <[email protected]> writes:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will
be a significant upgrade.

...

Or should we
avoid Dell altogether?

In my experience big manufacturers like HP (and I assume Dell) all
have proprietary stuff inside, so if a component (e.g., the power
supply) fails, you have trouble getting a replacement (beyond getting
a complete new box). Of course you can buy a support contract from
Dell, but then you have to factor in the cost of that. We also had HP
servers with proprietary RAID controllers, which we could not use
under Linux or something; IIRC we used the disk controller from the
Intel chipset which fortunately also had SATA headers.

So what we do instead is to buy components from the DIY market, and
build our own servers. We select components that support ECC (if
that's an issue for you), and are generally happy with the result,
although in recent time we have had a few WTF moments when building
these things. And if you count the time for ordering the components
and building these things as expense only, it's probably uneconomical.

You can find out about some of our Ryzen-based servers here: <http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/ryzen-server.html>

If Ryzens are too expensive for you, Intel had ECC-capable Celerons
and Pentiums in earlier generations, not sure if they are still
available.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed [email protected] Most things have to be believed to be seen http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

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Joerg Lorenz <[email protected]> wrote:

Am 09.07.22 um 14:44 schrieb Chris:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will >> be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor
desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but
could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old
and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get
decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an
optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we >> avoid Dell altogether?

Last year I bought a Dell Inspiron XPS-9310 with a preinstalled Ubuntu.
Cost roughly $1200 (CHG 1100). Perfect and easy to use solution.

Thanks, but a laptop is not what I'm after.

In
general HP and Dell are well supported by Distros or if you want vice versa.

That was my suspicion thanks for confirming.

If that is too expensive look for a used machine. Avoid machines with
old fashioned optical devices and harddrives. Look for machines with a SSDs.

Yup. Definitely getting an SSD.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 7/9/22 10:15, Chris wrote:

Joerg Lorenz <[email protected]> wrote:

Am 09.07.22 um 14:44 schrieb Chris:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would >>> you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will >>> be a significant upgrade.

I set up my FIL with the microserver as an affordable small formfactor
desktop for running linux. It's so long ago I can't remember exactly but >>> could be 8 years ago, if not longer.

I've said to him that we should consider replacing it as it's getting old >>> and starting to struggle a bit.

Through his professional membership - despite being retired - he can get >>> decent discounts on Dell machines. Hence the question.

I quite like the look of the Vostro 3710 as he'd still like to have an
optical disk drive. Any other good options for running linux? Or should we >>> avoid Dell altogether?

Last year I bought a Dell Inspiron XPS-9310 with a preinstalled Ubuntu.
Cost roughly $1200 (CHG 1100). Perfect and easy to use solution.

Thanks, but a laptop is not what I'm after.

In
general HP and Dell are well supported by Distros or if you want vice versa.

That was my suspicion thanks for confirming.

If that is too expensive look for a used machine. Avoid machines with
old fashioned optical devices and harddrives. Look for machines with a SSDs.

Yup. Definitely getting an SSD.

Make sure it is a SSD of ample size to your needs.
For example this E7450 came with 128 GB SSD whcih was really an NVMe in
a SATA adaptor. I managed to wedge in a 500 GB SSD directly to the SATA adapter. The space allotted in the construction was not enough for a
full sized NVMe drive. If you get a used machine check the battery and
replace if needed.

bliss- an ad a day should be enough.

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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On 7/9/2022 1:15 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Chris <[email protected]> writes:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would
you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will >> be a significant upgrade.

...

Or should we
avoid Dell altogether?

In my experience big manufacturers like HP (and I assume Dell) all
have proprietary stuff inside, so if a component (e.g., the power
supply) fails, you have trouble getting a replacement (beyond getting
a complete new box). Of course you can buy a support contract from
Dell, but then you have to factor in the cost of that. We also had HP servers with proprietary RAID controllers, which we could not use
under Linux or something; IIRC we used the disk controller from the
Intel chipset which fortunately also had SATA headers.

So what we do instead is to buy components from the DIY market, and
build our own servers. We select components that support ECC (if
that's an issue for you), and are generally happy with the result,
although in recent time we have had a few WTF moments when building
these things. And if you count the time for ordering the components
and building these things as expense only, it's probably uneconomical.

You can find out about some of our Ryzen-based servers here: <http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/ryzen-server.html>

If Ryzens are too expensive for you, Intel had ECC-capable Celerons
and Pentiums in earlier generations, not sure if they are still
available.

- anton

"In my experience big manufacturers like HP (and I assume Dell) all
have proprietary stuff inside"

If you're referring to the Dell practice of using a non-standard
wiring harness for the main ATX connector, they stopped doing
that at least 15 years ago or more.

*******

There is still the opportunity for the "formfactor" of the
computer you buy, to be inconvenient. If you buy an SFF or USFF
packaged computer, those have smaller supplies (a supply shaped
like a book inside), and if those fail, you might have to make
slightly more effort to find a replacement. The video card slot
might only be HHHL on those, meaning misery while shopping for one.

Note that ATX 2.2 supply standard, is being changed to an
"ATX 3.0". The physical dimensions (two dimensions fixed, the "length"
being variable) should be the same. We should be seeing
some changes like this... very soon. This will undoubtedly
cause misery for manufacturers and builders ("what spec do I design to").
Any products in the channel at the moment, won't have this.
So in fact, now is a good time to buy :-) Not Dec.2022.

"ATX Version 3.0 Multi Rail Desktop Platform Power Supply R2.0 Feb2022"

https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/336521

Name: 336521_Rev_2p0.pdf
Size: 2,238,273 bytes (2185 KiB)
SHA1: FF5BD194DE7DF5E8ABCB591B698D621D87AEC4FD

"ATX12VO 12V Only Desktop PSU"

https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/613768/view https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getcontent/613768

Name: 613768_2.0.pdf
Size: 2,940,434 bytes (2871 KiB)
SHA1: E1DA5AF2B5415ECEEDFEC1A904A8098AEAF0157B

"Design Guide Addenda"

https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/621484

Name: 621484_004.pdf
Size: 401,329 bytes (391 KiB)
SHA1: 19638C74C1A41848077018766157444FF1CDE36E

*******

Start with single-thread bench, work down until
you hit a Xeon.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

Intel Xeon W-1390P @ 3.50GHz (71%) 3,619 PriceNA

My desktop right now, is 3,219 by comparison. Since
a lot of code is single-threaded, (turbo) speed is a consideration.

This is the first one I hit, which is a match, and might
deliver on the goods. Some of the other offerings make
me nervous (open the box, no working ECC, has happened to me!,
thank you Intel).

https://www.fujitsu.com/emeia/products/computing/pc/workstations/celsius-w5011/

MachineName = CELSIUS W5011
Processor
Intel Xeon processor W-1350
Intel Xeon processor W-1370
Intel Xeon processor W-1390P <=== should be ECC-capable
Intel Core i9-11900 processor
Intel Core i9-11900K processor
Intel Core i7-11700 processor
Intel Core i7-11700K processor
Intel Core i5-11500 processor

Supported capacity RAM (max.) 128 GB, DIMM (DDR4) ECC/non-ECC, 3200 MT/s

Drive bays

2 x M.2-2280 <=== has possibilities...

1 x 2.5-inch internal bays
2 x 3.5-inch internal bays

1 x 3.5-inch external bays
2 x 5.25-inch external bays

BIOS version AMI Aptio V <=== you always have to be careful with
UEFI Specification 2.6 tasteless BIOS choices on OEM machines...

*******

If the search engines won't cough up the goods, it can
be pretty hard to shop for something like this. I can't even
find a whiff on Fujitsu price.

If a machine is eight years old, it should still be
running fine. Only a Windows 11 user would be SOL (MBEC missing).
The names of the last two items, look like VM nesting primitives.
MBEC is unlikely to be listed with that exact name on ark.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/o9uynb/mbec_mode_based_execution_control_the_culprit_why/

I don't see any line item here, hinting MBEC status is documented.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/212268/intel-xeon-w1390p-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-30-ghz.html

Paul

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Paul <[email protected]d> writes:

On 7/9/2022 1:15 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Chris <[email protected]> writes:

If you were to replace an aging HP microserver with a new Dell what would >>> you choose? Very basic needs and low cost. Basically any current spec will >>> be a significant upgrade.

...

Or should we
avoid Dell altogether?

In my experience big manufacturers like HP (and I assume Dell) all
have proprietary stuff inside, so if a component (e.g., the power
supply) fails, you have trouble getting a replacement (beyond getting
a complete new box).

"In my experience big manufacturers like HP (and I assume Dell) all
have proprietary stuff inside"

If you're referring to the Dell practice of using a non-standard
wiring harness for the main ATX connector, they stopped doing
that at least 15 years ago or more.

I am referring to the HP practice on having non-ATX power supplies and mainboards with non-ATX power connectors. Nowadays there's a
specification for 12V-only PSUs, but those HP boxes are from long
before that specification, and anyway, I don't find any such PSUs
listed in the geizhals.at price comparison website.

There is still the opportunity for the "formfactor" of the
computer you buy, to be inconvenient. If you buy an SFF or USFF
packaged computer

The experiences we have are with normal mini-towers and with servers
set up for a 19" rack.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed [email protected] Most things have to be believed to be seen http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

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On 7/9/2022 5:48 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:

The experiences we have are with normal mini-towers and with servers
set up for a 19" rack.

- anton

Would these HP PSUs be following some standard anyway ?
Do they have a declaration on the label to that effect ?

The formfactors.org site appears to be gone, so I cannot
rely on it for a list of standards, if any.

Paul

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Paul <[email protected]d> writes:

On 7/9/2022 5:48 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:

The experiences we have are with normal mini-towers and with servers
set up for a 19" rack.

- anton

Would these HP PSUs be following some standard anyway ?

I doubt it. Maybe now with the 12V-only standard, they do, but it
does not help if no such PSU can be bought.

The mini-towers also did not follow the ATX standard wrt how the
mainboard is connected to the case, so we could not reuse the cases of
these boxes for new mainboards. Basically the only thing that
followed standards in these HP boxes was the CPU, the RAM and probably
the disk drive.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed [email protected] Most things have to be believed to be seen http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

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