• mostly OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave (was: Re: Brows

    From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to Paul on Sun Aug 17 14:41:49 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 2025/8/16 23:44:39, Paul wrote:
    On Sat, 8/16/2025 11:02 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    []

    And, the new methods _are_ very seductive. A recent discussion suggested
    (I think) that Germany was using the LW band in ways beyond just
    broadcasting - much as we do for power-load switching, but to a greater
    extent. I decided to try to find out, so googled for a bit - without
    much success; then I gave in and went to ChatGPT. I was able to
    determine that in fact Germany does not use the LW band for _anything_ -
    broadcast or otherwise. Yes, this assumes chatGPT knows (or can find)
    the answer - but in this case, I suspect it could do so at least as well
    as I could, and certainly considerably more quickly.

    So I can see it rapidly becoming the go-to place to ask questions.>

    []

    First, I start with a Wiki, to find some ground truth and to find
    some terminology for my topic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwave

    DCF77 in Frankfurt, Germany, on 77.5 kHz, 50 kW

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77

    Operation at that frequency, requires some amount of power. One of
    the installations of that nature, has three generators onsite providing
    power for transmitter operation. Because of the expense, there is a temptation to turn the things off.

    Yes, at least one search I did came up with that as well. Possibly
    because it's within " the International Telecommunication Union (ITU)
    low frequency (LF, 30–300 kHz)". However, I was/we were talking about
    the "long wave" _broadcast_ band (which I understand is not used in USA
    [less and less so in Europe now], which is 148.5 and 283.5 kHz
    (Wikipedia: "With the adoption of the Geneva Frequency Plan of 1975,
    long-wave carrier frequencies are exact multiples of 9 kHz; ranging from
    153 to 279 kHz.") [It seems odd to me that region 1 does not use the LW
    band; a single LW transmitter covers a larger area, and I'd have thought
    the larger sizes of several countries in region 1 - such as USA, Canada,
    and Brazil - would make it desirable, or at least so when broadcasting started.] The LW band is being less and less used now - mainly due to
    increased levels of interference, mainly from power switching devices;
    Germany does not use it for anything, broadcast or otherwise. (Though
    I've seen mention of a _new_ station starting, in Finland.)>
    *******

    You can certainly make mistakes doing plumbing.

    Indeed! Always find out where your stopcock (main shut-off valve) is
    before you start! (and secondary one for hot water if you have a hot
    water tank.) And don't even attempt to work on gas pipework unless
    you're a qualified gas engineer.>
    Your first mistake, is buying your materials at the plumbing store :-) Inflationary spiral, my ass.

    Or, here, from the primary DIY chain; the secondary one is often
    cheaper, and is less likely to leave out parts you need.>
    Paul
    John
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Have the courage to be ordinary - people make themselves so desperately
    unhappy trying to be clever and totally original.
    (Robbie Coltrane, RT 8-14 Nov. 1997.)

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  • From sticks@21:1/5 to J. P. Gilliver on Sun Aug 17 12:42:07 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 8/17/2025 8:41 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    And don't even attempt to work on gas pipework unless
    you're a qualified gas engineer.>

    Nonsense. I don't think you're fearmongering, but you simply don't know
    what you're talking about here. Gas pipe could even be said to be
    easier than copper pipe, since the typical black pipe job doesn't get
    soldered joints. If you personally feel unqualified to cut pipe,
    connect, and check for leaks, you should not be doing it. If for peace
    of mind alone.

    I certainly am not a "qualified gas engineer" and I have done gas pipe
    jobs many times. Most men, with a bare minimum of research and a few
    specialty tools, can successfully do gas pipe and save a ton of money.

    If you do have a professional do it, you should still check his work.

    --
    Science doesn't support Darwin. Scientists do.

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to sticks on Sun Aug 17 18:50:20 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    sticks wrote:

    Gas pipe could even be said to be easier than copper pipe, since the
    typical black pipe job doesn't get soldered joints.

    Probably a UK/USA difference, but domestic gas pipes have been almost exclusively copper here for decades ... yes you can still buy black iron
    pipe and fittings at real plumbers merchants, but not likely in DIY sheds.

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to sticks on Sun Aug 17 19:44:49 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    sticks wrote:

    different materials can be used here too, even plastics now if you can believe that!  Black iron is still number one here in USA, I think.

    Plastic is used in the street, but it must change to metal as it comes
    inside.

    Plastic-coated corrugated stainless steel "tracpipe" is becoming more
    popular, it can be ordered to length, with pre-made flare fittings, so
    no soldering.

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  • From sticks@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Sun Aug 17 13:23:02 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 8/17/2025 12:50 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
    sticks wrote:

    Gas pipe could even be said to be easier than copper pipe, since the
    typical black pipe job doesn't get soldered joints.

    Probably a UK/USA difference, but domestic gas pipes have been almost exclusively copper here for decades ... yes you can still buy black iron
    pipe and fittings at real plumbers merchants, but not likely in DIY sheds.

    Thanks, I was unaware of that.
    Yes, different materials can be used here too, even plastics now if you
    can believe that! Black iron is still number one here in USA, I think.
    I have always preferred copper for water pipe, but I finally did my
    first PEX water job a few months ago. Felt like I was going to the dark
    side.


    --
    Science doesn't support Darwin. Scientists do.

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  • From sticks@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Sun Aug 17 14:53:41 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 8/17/2025 1:44 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
    sticks wrote:

    different materials can be used here too, even plastics now if you can
    believe that!  Black iron is still number one here in USA, I think.

    Plastic is used in the street, but it must change to metal as it comes inside.

    Yes, we have that here for outside supply lines for some time now. I
    once had a project reconstructing a city street and though all the
    services did have locate wires buried with the pipe, the gas company
    knew all the lines were in the cut and didn't want to bother lowering
    them for the project. We were advised to simply dig through all of them
    and then kink them shut held by a vice grips and give them a call. For
    weeks they came at the end of the day, added pipe and connected the
    lines, and buried them in the new grade.

    Even knowing they were they and you were going to cut them, it took a
    little getting used to hearing that blowing noise and smelling the gas
    after always training people NOT to do that.

    --
    Science doesn't support Darwin. Scientists do.

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Sun Aug 17 16:23:14 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On Sun, 8/17/2025 1:50 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
    sticks wrote:

    Gas pipe could even be said to be easier than copper pipe, since the typical black pipe job doesn't get soldered joints.

    Probably a UK/USA difference, but domestic gas pipes have been almost exclusively copper here for decades ... yes you can still buy black iron pipe and fittings at real plumbers merchants, but not likely in DIY sheds.

    My new furnace here (Canada) was a black pipe job. The tech had a thread cutter in the trailer behind his truck, and was running it off my outdoor power outlet.
    And making up short sections for his own idea of a "neat" job. The thread cutter draws a fair bit of power.

    We eventually ended up working all the way back to the meter. His assistant wasn't with him, and I held some pipe (in basement) while he disassembled the meter end (outdoor meter, not a smart type meter). The job still wasn't leak-proofed in the end and really, all of the pipe needed to be taken apart.

    But I prefer that to copper. The previous furnace had mostly black pipe,
    and it had one section of copper leading to the furnace, and it took
    three tries, two guys with a big spanner each, to get enough compressive pressure to make it so the copper connection point did not leak.
    Copper is a metal that "smears", it's like it makes its own grease,
    when you want something to grip.

    So of the two technologies, I now know that with the black pipe,
    you can make it gas-tight with a modicum of effort. Whereas the
    short section of copper, showed that copper as a gas pipe, is
    just a disaster waiting to happen. And all of the people involved
    in this case, install one or two furnaces per day. It's not like
    they lack practice. The guy who did my latest furnace, he has
    to "re-certify" every couple of years, and do an install in front
    of some sort of inspector. That's where they receive feedback
    on the "latest" issue. The latest issue being the need for tape
    at some of the mount points, for fake galvanic protection. Dissimilar
    metals needing some kind of tape being put between them. The piping
    still has plenty of points where metal on metal straps are present,
    so it's not like the entire thing is galvanically protected.

    Now we're back to a black-pipe-only distribution, no more copper in there.
    I'm happy with that part of it, at least.

    And on a previous visit, there was a connection from ground added, to a
    gas pipe. Hard to say, whether that has made things safer or less safe.

    Paul

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Paul on Mon Aug 18 07:01:51 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    Paul wrote:

    The previous furnace had mostly black pipe,
    and it had one section of copper leading to the furnace, and it took
    three tries, two guys with a big spanner each, to get enough compressive pressure to make it so the copper connection point did not leak.

    So solder it?

    Gas mains in the street were replaced here last year (something like 3"
    plastic inserted inside the 1970s 4" cast iron). As built, the houses transitioned to black iron somewhere outside the front door, which then
    went under the solid concrete floors to the meter. In the intervening
    years many front-porches and garages had been built over the transition
    point, they refused to leave my meter in the same location.

    Some houses had ugly meter boxes fitted on (not within) external walls,
    others had yards and yards of external pipe snaked around their house
    also ugly). I got them to dig* and divert the incoming pipe a couple of metres, so all that's visible is an external vertical riser about 18".
    The rest is 22mm soldered copper, neat enough and will get boxed inside
    a cupboard "soon".

    [*] i knew there was concrete under the block paved drive, but they
    didn't ask, I suspect it was biting-off more than they expected!

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  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to sticks on Mon Aug 18 13:18:52 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 2025/8/17 18:42:7, sticks wrote:
    On 8/17/2025 8:41 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    And don't even attempt to work on gas pipework unless
    you're a qualified gas engineer.>

    Nonsense. I don't think you're fearmongering, but you simply don't know

    More protecting myself. In UK, work on gas or electric _has_ to be done
    by someone qualified/registered, by law, whereas water doesn't (yet).
    There are concessions: for electric, certain things are allowed, such as
    the _replacement_ of some existing parts of the system (if you smash a
    socket [most UK ones are at floor level] by running into it when
    vacuuming, for example), but _new_ parts aren't advised. I'm not sure
    what if any gas things are allowed. So when I said the above, I was
    really just protecting myself against any claim that I was advising law-breaking.

    what you're talking about here. Gas pipe could even be said to be
    easier than copper pipe, since the typical black pipe job doesn't get soldered joints. If you personally feel unqualified to cut pipe,
    connect, and check for leaks, you should not be doing it. If for peace
    of mind alone.

    (Never having worked on gas pipework, I'm not sure what "black pipe"
    _is_. Cast iron? [I _think_ UK gas pipework, at least _inside_ homes,
    tends to be copper or plastic. But ICBWAT.])>
    I certainly am not a "qualified gas engineer" and I have done gas pipe
    jobs many times. Most men, with a bare minimum of research and a few specialty tools, can successfully do gas pipe and save a ton of money.

    If you do have a professional do it, you should still check his work.

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known
    - Danny Baker

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  • From sticks@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Mon Aug 18 09:08:47 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 8/18/2025 1:01 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
    Paul wrote:

    The previous furnace had mostly black pipe,
    and it had one section of copper leading to the furnace, and it took
    three tries, two guys with a big spanner each, to get enough compressive
    pressure to make it so the copper connection point did not leak.

    So solder it?

    Don't know about Canada, but not allowed in US. You can use flare nuts,
    and in a few places compression. The gas can react with copper and
    flake causing weakness at the soldered joints, or block valves which can
    be a disaster for obvious reasons.

    In my house I have all black pipe, except brass valves with threaded
    joints. At the water heater, the short length of pipe going to the
    burner gets switched to aluminum, which doesn't flake and plug the
    burner. About every two years I gotta take that out and clean the flame
    sensor at the ignition point.

    Gas mains in the street were replaced here last year (something like 3" plastic inserted inside the 1970s 4" cast iron). As built, the houses transitioned to black iron somewhere outside the front door, which then
    went under the solid concrete floors to the meter.  In the intervening
    years many front-porches and garages had been built over the transition point, they refused to leave my meter in the same location.

    Some houses had ugly meter boxes fitted on (not within) external walls, others had yards and yards of external pipe snaked around their house
    also ugly).  I got them to dig* and divert the incoming pipe a couple of metres, so all that's visible is an external vertical riser about 18".
    The rest is 22mm soldered copper, neat enough and will get boxed inside
    a cupboard "soon".

    That surprises me. Probably brazed with special solder. Much higher
    heat in the process and hence stronger.


    [*] i knew there was concrete under the block paved drive, but they
    didn't ask, I suspect it was biting-off more than they expected!

    Heh, been there.


    --
    Science doesn't support Darwin. Scientists do.

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  • From Mark Lloyd@21:1/5 to sticks on Mon Aug 18 16:50:28 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 14:53:41 -0500, sticks wrote:

    [snip]

    Even knowing they were they and you were going to cut them, it took a
    little getting used to hearing that blowing noise and smelling the gas
    after always training people NOT to do that.

    I have been around when they needed to purge the gas line to my water
    heater (gas had been off because of a faulty regulator). I was surprised
    at how LOUD it was when the gas came through.

    BTW, I might have made the noise to remind myself, but didn't because it
    would scare the cat.

    --
    Mark Lloyd
    http://notstupid.us/

    "Pastor: One employed by the wicked to prove to them by his example that
    virtue doesn't pay." [H.L. Mencken]

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  • From sticks@21:1/5 to Mark Lloyd on Mon Aug 18 13:37:53 2025
    XPost: alt.comp.software.firefox, alt.comp.os.windows-11

    On 8/18/2025 11:50 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Aug 2025 14:53:41 -0500, sticks wrote:

    [snip]

    Even knowing they were they and you were going to cut them, it took a
    little getting used to hearing that blowing noise and smelling the gas
    after always training people NOT to do that.

    I have been around when they needed to purge the gas line to my water
    heater (gas had been off because of a faulty regulator). I was surprised
    at how LOUD it was when the gas came through.

    BTW, I might have made the noise to remind myself, but didn't because it would scare the cat.

    You'd be amazed at what you hear when an 8" MOP (maximum operating
    pressure) lines gets hit. It's really damn scary. If you happen to be
    the operator that has done the damage, it takes courage to do what is
    right. You have to get the machine turned off, especially if it is a
    diesel. Most simply immediately turn off the engine and run like hell.
    If you're gutsy enough, you try and get backed up enough to be out of
    the way for repair and if a fire breaks out the machine doesn't go down
    with the ship. You've only got a short time to decide.

    If you ever drive near a big gas leak, you should know this. With a gas engine, you can simply turn off the key and this will kill the ignition
    and no spark will go to the cylinders to ignite any gas. A diesel is different. They don't need spark and operate on compression and heat.
    So if you are close enough for the gas to get sucked into the intake,
    the engine can take off and run away at revs that will blow the hell out
    of everything, and most likely cause a big fire. I've never seen this
    happen, but have talked to guys who have. Once it starts, there is
    literally nothing you can do until it runs out of gas.


    --
    Science doesn't support Darwin. Scientists do.

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