XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft account he
no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his Microsoft subscription
through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his personal
OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every file, with the
full intention that we would then unlink his personal OneDrive account
and be told that all his local files would remain on the device.

And while it is true that the local files did remain on his hard drive, attempting to access them was made more difficult by an idiotic choice
that Microsoft made for him.

In his user folder, there are two OneDrive folders: one simply called ”OneDrive”, and the other called ”OneDrive –<business name>. Checking the properties of the folder called “OneDrive”, we could see that his 11
GB of personal oneDrive files were in that folder, however:

Whenever we attempted to open that folder to check the contents against
files in his new business-oriented OneDrive, Microsoft Windows 11
operating system made the completely unhelpful choice of opening a new
window to that business-oriented OneDrive; immediately hiding that it
had also opened the personal OneDrive folder we wanted to check.

This made it appear as if Microsoft had chosen to send you to the active OneDrive, when in fact is it just opened another window that the user
hadn’t asked for!

What is more, when we finally realize what was going on, and set up the
two different folders side-by-side to examine their contents and decide
what needed to stay and what needed to go, every time we drilled down
into a folder to look at its contents and then moved back up into the
base, personal OneDrive folder, the operating system would open yet
another full-screen window to the active OneDrive over top of the two we
were trying to compare.

What idiot ever possibly thought that this was a good idea?

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 7/16/2025 3:48 PM, Alan wrote:

What idiot ever possibly thought that this [OneDrive idiocy] was a
good idea?

Well at least MS allowed me to delete the OneDrive app since I don't
need it. Wish I could as easily get rid of some of their other stuff.
(BTW I use a competitors online drive service. Starts with a (gasp) "G"...)

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 2025-07-16 22:04, ...winston wrote:

Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft account
he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his Microsoft
subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his personal
OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every file, with
the full intention that we would then unlink his personal OneDrive
account and be told that all his local files would remain on the device.

Two different OneDrive MSFT accounts with two separate subscriptions
should have been the original clue.

If crossing the same path in the future, ensure the personal one drive
folder is relocated to a folder external to the Desktop\OneDrive folder
 - Unlink One Drive personal, Reopen/reconnect OneDrive and choose the option to set the path to the new location(e.g. In Documents or another
use created folder on the drive(or other internal drive if available)

The paths were NOT the same.

Try again.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Thu, 7/17/2025 1:45 AM, Alan wrote:

On 2025-07-16 22:04, ...winston wrote:

Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft account he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his Microsoft subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his personal OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every file, with the full intention that we would then unlink his personal OneDrive account and be told that all his local files

would remain on the device.

Two different OneDrive MSFT accounts with two separate subscriptions should have been the original clue.

If crossing the same path in the future, ensure the personal one drive folder is relocated to a folder external to the Desktop\OneDrive folder
  - Unlink One Drive personal, Reopen/reconnect OneDrive and choose the option to set the path to the new location(e.g. In Documents or another use created folder on the drive(or other internal drive if available)

The paths were NOT the same.

Try again.

There is supposed to be a GPEDIT.msc policy for "preventing user from using personal OneDrive".

You can block syncing to a specific business account "tenant" (you could try this one Alan).
What are the odds a human knows the TenantID ? Are these listed on the pub wall as "for a good time, call 1111-2222-3333-4444" ?

[HKCU\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\OneDrive]"DisablePersonalSync"=dword:00000001

[HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\OneDrive\BlockTenantList] "1111-2222-3333-4444"

As seen here.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sharepoint/use-group-policy#block-syncing-onedrive-accounts-for-specific-organizations

But the situation cries out for a status interface, in a similar
way to how my File Explorer shows the availability of BlueWave or
Wallace machines and I can pick visually, the File Sharing I want to do. Imagine if instead, I was blinded, there was no graphical File Sharing representation,
and I had to type in tedious IP addresses (with no certainty I would
receive a good time if I malformed one of the IP addresses).

To be managing shit like this with Regedits, it tedious and a boor,
that I bet not even the staff at MSFT enjoy. If you can be laying off
people at MSFT, how about keeping one, and improve the OneDrive :-)

If the software doesn't work (well or at all), with two syncing accounts enabled at the same time, a button box could at least portray the interlock
of the accounts, and how selecting one by clicking it, disables another
from syncing.

For business tenants blocked by the IT department, a suitable annoying gray colour could be assigned to the "deadified" buttons.

A thing like a GraphEdit, showing lines representing data flow, like
"where are my files", would be handy too as a discovery hint. Like if my OneDrive was safely drained, and a symbol indicating "all files are in
my Profile area now", think how handy that would be. Like the interface
on a Process Control in a chemical plant, all of dangerous reagent A,
is in tank X and the temperature is zero C.

Paul

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 2025-07-17 05:43, ...winston wrote:

Alan wrote:

On 2025-07-16 22:04, ...winston wrote:

Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft
account he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his
Microsoft subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his
personal OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every
file, with the full intention that we would then unlink his personal
OneDrive account and be told that all his local files would remain
on the device.

Two different OneDrive MSFT accounts with two separate subscriptions
should have been the original clue.

If crossing the same path in the future, ensure the personal one
drive folder is relocated to a folder external to the
Desktop\OneDrive folder
  - Unlink One Drive personal, Reopen/reconnect OneDrive and choose
the option to set the path to the new location(e.g. In Documents or
another use created folder on the drive(or other internal drive if
available)

The paths were NOT the same.

Try again.

The paths last folder would never be the same for two different
OneDrive's on the same device.

The error was not understanding or researching how OneDrive functions,
it's default(changeable) storage location, and not saving the first MSA OneDrive files to another location or copying them to a folder
independent of OneDrive.

No. The error is that after unlinking a OneDrive account, the folder
with its files should then be treated as an ordinary folder, and it is NOT.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 2025-07-17 06:08, Paul wrote:

On Thu, 7/17/2025 1:45 AM, Alan wrote:

On 2025-07-16 22:04, ...winston wrote:

Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft
account he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his
Microsoft subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his
personal OneDrive to download and always keep on his device
every file, with the full intention that we would then unlink
his personal OneDrive account and be told that all his local
files would remain on the device.

Two different OneDrive MSFT accounts with two separate
subscriptions should have been the original clue.

If crossing the same path in the future, ensure the personal one
drive folder is relocated to a folder external to the
Desktop\OneDrive folder - Unlink One Drive personal, Reopen/
reconnect OneDrive and choose the option to set the path to the
new location(e.g. In Documents or another use created folder on
the drive(or other internal drive if available)

The paths were NOT the same.

Try again.

There is supposed to be a GPEDIT.msc policy for "preventing user
from using personal OneDrive".

All of that is beside the point.

This business is owned by the client, and he had had a personal OneDrive
from before its formation, and all we were doing was making sure that
data on his personal OneDrive as completely downloaded to his computer
before ending his personal subscription to Microsoft 365.

What should have happened was that after we had ascertained that all
files were on his computer ("Always keep on this device" applied to the
entire hierarchy), and then unlinked the account (and been informed that
local files would quite naturally remain in his user folder...

...at that point the folder containing the contents of the unlinked
personal OneDrive should just have been treated as an ordinary folder.

That didn't happen.

Any attempt to open that folder to view its contents resulted in A
DIFFERENT FOLDER BEING OPENED OVER TOP OF IT.

That is just stupid.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Thu, 7/17/2025 12:32 PM, Alan wrote:

All of that is beside the point.

This business is owned by the client, and he had had a personal OneDrive from before its formation, and all we were doing was making sure that data on his personal OneDrive as completely downloaded to his computer before ending his personal

subscription to Microsoft 365.

What should have happened was that after we had ascertained that all files were on his computer ("Always keep on this device" applied to the entire hierarchy), and then unlinked the account (and been informed that local files would quite naturally

remain in his user folder...

...at that point the folder containing the contents of the unlinked personal OneDrive should just have been treated as an ordinary folder.

That didn't happen.

Any attempt to open that folder to view its contents resulted in A DIFFERENT FOLDER BEING OPENED OVER TOP OF IT.

That is just stupid.

There seem to be two separate applications. Yet, the OneDrive normally used for Personal,
you can enter a second account in the OneDrive NextGen application and have two folder icons
in the task bar.

https://www.kapilarya.com/how-to-use-onedrive-personal-and-business-on-same-computer

In terms of the file system, there are now three areas on disk.

C:\users\username\Documents
C:\users\username\OneDrive\Documents
C:\users\username\OneDrive - BusinessName\Documents

"The Documents folder in File Explorer is synchronized with the Documents folder in OneDrive.
There should not be a separate Documents folder under the OneDrive path in File Explorer.
However, when you enable the Documents option in OneDrive Backup, it uploads the
Documents folder from File Explorer to C:\Users\username\OneDrive\Documents"

More fun demonstrated here, where a user unravels a slip of the mouse. Apparently, "sync" and "backup" and "Pinning to task bar" seem to matter somehow.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/questions-re-onedrive-document-folder-and/2869f2e7-e5b3-47de-aa42-e7c71fe9e3c8

Paul

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

Tom Elam wrote on 7/17/2025 4:31 PM:

On 7/16/2025 6:48 PM, Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft account
he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his Microsoft
subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his personal
OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every file, with
the full intention that we would then unlink his personal OneDrive
account and be told that all his local files would remain on the device.

And while it is true that the local files did remain on his hard
drive, attempting to access them was made more difficult by an idiotic
choice that Microsoft made for him.

In his user folder, there are two OneDrive folders: one simply
called ”OneDrive”, and the other called ”OneDrive –<business
name>. Checking the properties of the folder called “OneDrive”, we
could see that his 11 GB of personal oneDrive files were in that
folder, however:

Whenever we attempted to open that folder to check the contents
against files in his new business-oriented OneDrive, Microsoft Windows
11 operating system made the completely unhelpful choice of opening a
new window to that business-oriented OneDrive; immediately hiding that
it had also opened the personal OneDrive folder we wanted to check.

This made it appear as if Microsoft had chosen to send you to the
active OneDrive, when in fact is it just opened another window that
the user hadn’t asked for!

What is more, when we finally realize what was going on, and set up
the two different folders side-by-side to examine their contents and
decide what needed to stay and what needed to go, every time we
drilled down into a folder to look at its contents and then moved back
up into the base, personal OneDrive folder, the operating system would
open yet another full-screen window to the active OneDrive over top of
the two we were trying to compare.

What idiot ever possibly thought that this was a good idea?

If you ever find out I'd like to strangle him. OneDrive on a machine
with 2 Microsoft accounts is a total FUBAR.

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft
account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 7/17/2025 3:50 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft account.

So is google's version.

My Google Drive version is available to all my devices (toys?) no matter
the OS: Windows, Android, Fire OS, and Chrome OS in my case.

Just buy yourself a hard drive to do it yourself.

I suppose I could plug a physical drive into each device when needed but
that would definitely be a major PITA. Further it removes my online
backup protection...

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

Alan wrote on 7/17/2025 7:17 PM:

On 2025-07-17 15:50, Hank Rogers wrote:

Tom Elam wrote on 7/17/2025 4:31 PM:

On 7/16/2025 6:48 PM, Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft
account he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his
Microsoft subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his
personal OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every
file, with the full intention that we would then unlink his personal
OneDrive account and be told that all his local files would remain
on the device.

And while it is true that the local files did remain on his hard
drive, attempting to access them was made more difficult by an
idiotic choice that Microsoft made for him.

In his user folder, there are two OneDrive folders: one simply
called ”OneDrive”, and the other called ”OneDrive
–<business name>. Checking the properties of the folder
called “OneDrive”, we could see that his 11 GB of
personal oneDrive files were in that folder, however:

Whenever we attempted to open that folder to check the contents
against files in his new business-oriented OneDrive, Microsoft
Windows 11 operating system made the completely unhelpful choice of
opening a new window to that business-oriented OneDrive; immediately
hiding that it had also opened the personal OneDrive folder we
wanted to check.

This made it appear as if Microsoft had chosen to send you to the
active OneDrive, when in fact is it just opened another window that
the user hadn’t asked for!

What is more, when we finally realize what was going on, and set up
the two different folders side-by-side to examine their contents and
decide what needed to stay and what needed to go, every time we
drilled down into a folder to look at its contents and then moved
back up into the base, personal OneDrive folder, the operating
system would open yet another full-screen window to the active
OneDrive over top of the two we were trying to compare.

What idiot ever possibly thought that this was a good idea?

If you ever find out I'd like to strangle him. OneDrive on a machine
with 2 Microsoft accounts is a total FUBAR.

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft
account. So is google's version.  Just buy yourself a hard drive to
do it yourself.

There are lots of legitimate reasons to use OneDrive, the software, even
if you don't want OneDrive, the personal cloud storage resource.

OneDrive, the software is not only to synch with OneDrive, the personal
cloud storage service. It's also able to synchronize with SharePoint
sites, which allows for collaboration across an organization.

Yes: I COULD just use the web version of SharePoint access--and for some things I do, I DO use that, but having local copies of the files--being
able to quickly search their contents using the Mac's Spotlight
technology makes my work go much better.

How nice for you. I'm glad it provides what you need.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 2025-07-17 15:50, Hank Rogers wrote:

Tom Elam wrote on 7/17/2025 4:31 PM:

On 7/16/2025 6:48 PM, Alan wrote:

I just now worked with a client to end his personal Microsoft account
he no longer has a need for one, as he now gets his Microsoft
subscription through his business.

In the course of ending his personal subscription, we set his
personal OneDrive to download and always keep on his device every
file, with the full intention that we would then unlink his personal
OneDrive account and be told that all his local files would remain on
the device.

And while it is true that the local files did remain on his hard
drive, attempting to access them was made more difficult by an
idiotic choice that Microsoft made for him.

In his user folder, there are two OneDrive folders: one simply called
”OneDrive”, and the other called ”OneDrive –<business name>.
Checking the properties of the folder called “OneDrive”, we could
see that his 11 GB of personal oneDrive files were in that folder,
however:

Whenever we attempted to open that folder to check the contents
against files in his new business-oriented OneDrive, Microsoft
Windows 11 operating system made the completely unhelpful choice of
opening a new window to that business-oriented OneDrive; immediately
hiding that it had also opened the personal OneDrive folder we wanted
to check.

This made it appear as if Microsoft had chosen to send you to the
active OneDrive, when in fact is it just opened another window that
the user hadn’t asked for!

What is more, when we finally realize what was going on, and set up
the two different folders side-by-side to examine their contents and
decide what needed to stay and what needed to go, every time we
drilled down into a folder to look at its contents and then moved
back up into the base, personal OneDrive folder, the operating system
would open yet another full-screen window to the active OneDrive over
top of the two we were trying to compare.

What idiot ever possibly thought that this was a good idea?

If you ever find out I'd like to strangle him. OneDrive on a machine
with 2 Microsoft accounts is a total FUBAR.

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft account. So is google's version.  Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

There are lots of legitimate reasons to use OneDrive, the software, even
if you don't want OneDrive, the personal cloud storage resource.

OneDrive, the software is not only to synch with OneDrive, the personal
cloud storage service. It's also able to synchronize with SharePoint
sites, which allows for collaboration across an organization.

Yes: I COULD just use the web version of SharePoint access--and for some
things I do, I DO use that, but having local copies of the files--being
able to quickly search their contents using the Mac's Spotlight
technology makes my work go much better.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:50:11 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote:

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

--
s|b

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

Hank Rogers <[email protected]d> wrote:
[...]

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

As AJL also mentioned, Google Drive works just fine. In my case on
Windows and Android. The changeover from the different Windows versions
- i.e. "Drive for PC", "Backup and Sync [from Google]" and "Google
Drive" -, was a bit awkward, but with Google's help articles, everything
could be solved.

As to "Just buy yourself a hard drive to do it yourself.": I also have
a NAS for that, but that only works when we're not out and about
(devices are laptop, smartphones and tablets).

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 7/18/2025 1:52 PM, s|b wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:50:11 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote:

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft
account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

WakeOnLan would allow external contact to your PC but I think DropBox or OneDrive or similar is easier since can access from phone or pad

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

s|b <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:50:11 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote:

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

Many (most?) NAS devices can be configured a 'personal cloud' devices
with external access.

However for the "safely" bit, you must know exactly what you're doing.
It doesn't matter if you can't break into your 'personal cloud', but
whether or not a bad actor can. That's why I don't risk it and use a
public cloud (Google Drive) in addition to my local-only NAS.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 2025-07-18 12:04, ...winston wrote:

"Alan"  wrote in message news:105b87f$1es5i$[email protected]...

The paths were NOT the same.

The paths last folder would never be the same for two different
OneDrive's on the same device.

The error was not understanding or researching how OneDrive
functions, it's default(changeable) storage location, and not saving
the first MSA OneDrive files to another location or copying them to a
folder independent of OneDrive.

No. The error is that after unlinking a OneDrive account, the folder
with its files should then be treated as an ordinary folder, and it is
NOT.

That makes my point about *not* understanding OneDrive's account folders.

Not at all.

After the personal OneDrive is unlinked, the folder containing the files
should be treated like any other folder.

It is not.

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Fri, 7/18/2025 1:52 PM, s|b wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:50:11 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote:

Onedrive is an abomination, even on a machine with only ONE Microsoft
account. So is google's version. Just buy yourself a hard drive to do
it yourself.

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

Rather than write a serious answer, I could point at a jokey answer.

https://www.westerndigital.com/en-ca/products/cloud-storage/wd-my-cloud-home?sku=WDBVXC0020HWT-NESN

Paul

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Fri, 18 Jul 2025 19:52:24 +0200, s|b wrote:

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

Still waiting for Hank though...

--
s|b

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

s|b <[email protected]d> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2025 19:52:24 +0200, s|b wrote:

What would I need to access that hdd safely from outside my home
network? Or other users to access data I want to share with them?

Still waiting for Hank though...

I'm not Hank, but see my comments on NAS devices acting like a
personal cloud. There's Windows software which can turn your Windows
system to (also) act as a personal cloud. (As I said, *I* would never
use a personal cloud, but the functionality *does* exist.)

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On 20 Jul 2025 15:32:54 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

I'm not Hank, but see my comments on NAS devices acting like a
personal cloud. There's Windows software which can turn your Windows
system to (also) act as a personal cloud. (As I said, *I* would never
use a personal cloud, but the functionality *does* exist.)

Hank spits on OneDrive and Google Drive, stating 'use a hard drive', so
I'd like /him/ to explain how to do this in a safe way and maybe
elaborate on how this is the better choice. I'm always eager to learn.

--
s|b

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XPost: comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.comp.os.windows-11

On Sun, 7/20/2025 2:47 PM, s|b wrote:

On 20 Jul 2025 15:32:54 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

I'm not Hank, but see my comments on NAS devices acting like a
personal cloud. There's Windows software which can turn your Windows
system to (also) act as a personal cloud. (As I said, *I* would never
use a personal cloud, but the functionality *does* exist.)

Hank spits on OneDrive and Google Drive, stating 'use a hard drive', so
I'd like /him/ to explain how to do this in a safe way and maybe
elaborate on how this is the better choice. I'm always eager to learn.

Anything you expose on the Internet, has an element of risk associated with it.

The supposed benefit of a Cloud solution, is there are staff maintaining
the equipment. But we know they've made mistakes from time to time,
so this is not flawless. Humans are involved.

A "personal cloud" has a maintenance issue. They fall out of support, and
the manufacturer does not care about them at some point. There have been exploits for them. The "personal cloud" would need to be flash updated,
to correct any tiny OS issues the thing has inside. And these are issues
no different than the usage of NAS boxes. The difference is, the NAS box,
the reputation of the company depends on execution, whereas a hard drive company that "makes Personal Clouds on the side", doesn't have to particularly care if things do not go well.

A Personal Cloud remains personal, as long as it does not rely on a web server which keeps track of the new dynamic IP address of the owners Personal Cloud node. You can operate independently of such schemes, if you

Buy a Domain [gives a symbolic address to use like sPipeB.org or similar]
Use DynDNS and pay the yearly fee, for registering DNS changes, so sPipeB.org resolved correctly
[The Personal Server may get through your router, via a Port 80 hack]

That might cost you $30-$50 a year. When you buy the domain, remember to
cloak your private details (your registrant email address). That's so
you won't receive any Phishing emails in your email box, with
armed attachments for you to double-click. One person on USENET, was
tipped over and all his computers, encrypted via that mechanism. And
all because he forgot to cloak himself.

Paul

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