It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages?
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
In message <[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov
2023 15:02:06, Steve Hayes <[email protected]> writes
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
If you mean new machines, then yes - although a 32-bit version of
Windows 10 does exist, I've never seen a new machine offered with it,
and I don't think there _is_ a 32-bit version of Windows 11.
As others have said, new machines have hardware for which '7 drivers do
not exist. Virtual machines, though, emulate hardware for which -
obviously - drivers do exist. There might be _some_ difficulty in
"passing through" the host OS, so you can access e. g. USB ports
(assuming the new machine even has any USB2 ones), though I think these
are surmountable.
When I lost my 7 machine, and replaced it (January this year IIRR), I
found a shop selling several (second-hand) Windows 7 laptops - with 32
bit as a definite option; when I asked him why, he said lots of people
were in the same situation as you, wanting to run 32-bit software or hardware. You may find - if you can find such a dealer - such a machine
still a step-up on your old one; I have been enjoying this one (compared
to my old one, it has a bigger screen so proper keyboard, 4G [the 32-bit maximum] instead of 3G RAM, and I think a more powerful processor).
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
If/when you do get something that can run the old software, probably
worth seeing if there is a way of converting the data (presumably
involving getting an updated version of the software - maybe not the
latest version, if that can't, but a transitional version, that can read
the old and write the new; may need some digging to find).
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like, including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.
[]
Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were integrated, so they worked well.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were integrated, so they worked well.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
support.
Virtual machines are not emulators, it is a real operating system
running separated from your normal "host" OS.
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM[]
for 1 day).
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were integrated, so they worked well.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
ambiguity.
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM[]
for 1 day).
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >>> for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call "midnight".
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65 ><[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023 >>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
ambiguity.
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >>for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >>> for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call "midnight".
that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM
On 11/17/23 07:06, Marco Moock wrote:
[snip]
Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
support.
Are these programs compatible with Windows 10 32-bit?
In message <[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov
2023 15:02:06, Steve Hayes <[email protected]> writes
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all, >>laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
If you mean new machines, then yes - although a 32-bit version of
Windows 10 does exist, I've never seen a new machine offered with it,
and I don't think there _is_ a 32-bit version of Windows 11.
As others have said, new machines have hardware for which '7 drivers do
not exist. Virtual machines, though, emulate hardware for which -
obviously - drivers do exist. There might be _some_ difficulty in
"passing through" the host OS, so you can access e. g. USB ports
(assuming the new machine even has any USB2 ones), though I think these
are surmountable.
When I lost my 7 machine, and replaced it (January this year IIRR), I
found a shop selling several (second-hand) Windows 7 laptops - with 32
bit as a definite option; when I asked him why, he said lots of people
were in the same situation as you, wanting to run 32-bit software or >hardware. You may find - if you can find such a dealer - such a machine
still a step-up on your old one; I have been enjoying this one (compared
to my old one, it has a bigger screen so proper keyboard, 4G [the 32-bit >maximum] instead of 3G RAM, and I think a more powerful processor).
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
If/when you do get something that can run the old software, probably
worth seeing if there is a way of converting the data (presumably
involving getting an updated version of the software - maybe not the
latest version, if that can't, but a transitional version, that can read
the old and write the new; may need some digging to find).
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from >>someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like, >including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the >activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.
Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?
Your Windows 64-bit OS will run 32-bit programs. I presume you have
some 16-bit programs which will run on 32-bit Windows but not on
64-bit Windows.
A. I have Windows 10 64-bit with Windows 10 32-bit running inside
a virtual machine (the free-for-personal-use VMWare Workstation
Player version 16). It works.
You will need a separate MS licence for the Windows 32-bit OS
running inside the virtual machine, in addition to the licence
for the Windows 64-bit OS that comes with the computer you buy.
The virtual machine only emulates the computer hardware. You
must install the Windows 32-bit OS in the virtual machine,
similar to how you install Windows on a physical machine.
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
need to run. Correct?
If so, tell us a bit what kind of software/programs those are, so
maybe 'we' can suggest other methods than setting up a Windows 7 (or 8?
or 10?) virtual machine.
On 11/17/2023 8:02 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
into finding just the right laptop setup.
While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
without the VM.
Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working.
The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
assured of having media for the job.
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:56:47 +1300, Ralph Fox <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Your Windows 64-bit OS will run 32-bit programs. I presume you have
some 16-bit programs which will run on 32-bit Windows but not on
64-bit Windows.
A. I have Windows 10 64-bit with Windows 10 32-bit running inside
a virtual machine (the free-for-personal-use VMWare Workstation
Player version 16). It works.
You will need a separate MS licence for the Windows 32-bit OS
running inside the virtual machine, in addition to the licence
for the Windows 64-bit OS that comes with the computer you buy.
The virtual machine only emulates the computer hardware. You
must install the Windows 32-bit OS in the virtual machine,
similar to how you install Windows on a physical machine.
Thanks very much, that is one of the things I wanted to know.
How well does software running in the virtual machine communicate with
the host?
Can one, for example, copy/paste between them?
Can the virtual machine read/write files on the host system?
On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[]
12:00 AM
for 1 day).
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people
call "midnight".
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:53:03 -0500, Paul <[email protected]d>
wrote:
On 11/17/2023 8:02 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
<snip>
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
into finding just the right laptop setup.
While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
without the VM.
<snip>
Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working. >>
The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
assured of having media for the job.
Thanks very much for that -- best advice I've seen so far.
I'll print it out, show it to my local computer shop, and ask if he
can give me a quote for replacement, including a new copy of an O/S
for a Virtual Machine it a replacement for the original can't be got,
and pass it on to the insurance, but it may prove that the old machine
is irreplaceable, which has some very nasty implications for all the
people who have been advocating the digitisation of archival records
and destruction of the originals to save space.
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> writes:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >>>for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM is one minute before 12:01 AM (midnight).
12:00 PM is one minute before 12:01 PM (noon).
In comp.os.ms-windows.misc Zaidy036 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >> >>> for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call
"midnight".
Not only military time, but also the time in sane countries! :-)
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >><[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023 >>>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is >>>'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour >>clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any >>ambiguity.
I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and 12 PM to be
ambiguous. Interesting.
In message <[email protected]>, Char
Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65
<[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov
2023 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25,[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
2023 12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that
is 'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the
24-hour clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight")
avoids any ambiguity.
I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM
and 12 PM to be ambiguous. Interesting.
AM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e.
before and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before
nor after, so logically it should be 12 M.
Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12 hours post, but I suppose it--
would be more logical to call it 12 PM (or maybe 0 AM).
John Hall wrote on 19/11/23 7:55 pm:[]
In message <[email protected]>, Char
Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
AM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e.I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes leftI don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the
24-hour clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight")
avoids any ambiguity.
and 12 PM to be ambiguous. Interesting.
before and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before
nor after, so logically it should be 12 M.
Don't you just hate it when someone applies LOGIC to an argument?? ;-P
Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12 hours post, but I suppose it
would be more logical to call it 12 PM (or maybe 0 AM).
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were integrated, so they worked well.
Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?
Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
into finding just the right laptop setup.
While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
without the VM.
<snip>
Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working. >>
The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
assured of having media for the job.
Thanks very much for that -- best advice I've seen so far.
I'll print it out, show it to my local computer shop, and ask if he
can give me a quote for replacement, including a new copy of an O/S
for a Virtual Machine it a replacement for the original can't be got,
and pass it on to the insurance, but it may prove that the old machine
is irreplaceable, which has some very nasty implications for all the
people who have been advocating the digitisation of archival records
and destruction of the originals to save space.
I love "12 M"! At least, for those who insist on using AM/PM anyway,
it's an excellent solution. (But ...
that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:37:28 -0600, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d>
wrote:
On 11/17/23 07:06, Marco Moock wrote:
[snip]
Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
support.
Are these programs compatible with Windows 10 32-bit?
I don't know, I've never tried it, but I assume that if they ran OK
under Windows 7 32-bit they would run OK under Windows 10 32-bit.
Yes, that is one of the things I want to know.
If I can find a 32-bit Win7 or Win-10 machine, that would be my
preference, but if I can't, I want to know what a Virtual Box can and
cannot do, preferably from someone who had used or is using one.
My wife's Win-11 64-bit laptop is far slower than my Win7 laptop was,
and my Win 7 laptop was in turn far slower than my Win-XP 32-bit
desktop (on which I'm typing this). I blame that on bloatware.
I might ask her if I can try out one of these virtual box things on
her computer, but I don't know if that would mean repartitioning her
hard drive or something of the sort, which might make things even
worse.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like,
including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the
activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.
And then the question is: how well does that complete system interact
with the host system?
Is it possible to have the programs on the emulator and the data on
the host system? Can one copy and paste between them?
Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?
I used to copy my main data files (the ones I was working on every
day) between by desktop and laptop using a USB flash drive, and a
batch file, or rather set of batch files that copied everything with
one command -- dsk2flsh, flsh2lap, lap2flsh, flsh2dsk.
One advantage of that is that our electricity supplier has periodic
load shedding when demand exceeds supply and they would turn off the
power to certain areas in rotation, and when that happened I could
just transfer the files to the laptop and carry on working.
I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download
a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB), the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to respond.
How well does software running in the virtual machine communicate with
the host?
Can one, for example, copy/paste between them?
Can the virtual machine read/write files on the host system?
Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more!
On 19/11/2023 08:17, Paul wrote:for it on the parent directory/page.
I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org
seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download
a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB),
the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the
response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to >> respond.
I always hesitate to disagree with you, Paul, but IME today the above is NOT true. I set the download service on my QNAP NAS to download ...
https://archive.org/download/digital_river/x17-58996.iso
... and it downloaded successfully. In particular, I watched it roll over the 2GB downloaded mark with no perceptible glitch, the resulting file size is the advertised 2.39 GB, the ISO opens successfully in 7-zip, and its SHA1 agrees with that given
I think you must have a different problem somewhere?
In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65
<[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
ambiguity.
I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and 12
PM to be
ambiguous. Interesting.
AM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e. before
and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before nor after,
so logically it should be 12 M. Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12
hours post, but I suppose it would be more logical to call it 12 PM (or
maybe 0 AM).
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:59:56 +0000, Java Jive wrote:
Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more!
Two months ago I booted a new VMware virtual machine from a virtual
floppy, to install a new OS. Booting from a virtual floppy (mapped
to a *.flp file on the host) is not much different to booting from
a virtual CD (mapped to a *.iso file on the host).
On 19/11/2023 08:17, Paul wrote:for it on the parent directory/page.
I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org
seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download
a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB),
the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the
response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to >> respond.
I always hesitate to disagree with you, Paul, but IME today the above is NOT true. I set the download service on my QNAP NAS to download ...
https://archive.org/download/digital_river/x17-58996.iso
... and it downloaded successfully. In particular, I watched it roll over the 2GB downloaded mark with no perceptible glitch, the resulting file size is the advertised 2.39 GB, the ISO opens successfully in 7-zip, and its SHA1 agrees with that given
I think you must have a different problem somewhere?
On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
need to run. Correct?
Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed. Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
machines.
If so, tell us a bit what kind of software/programs those are, so
maybe 'we' can suggest other methods than setting up a Windows 7 (or 8?
or 10?) virtual machine.
InMagic and askSam text databases are the main ones, XyWrite word
processor, which I use, inter alia, for converting files from other
old word processing programs, and for reporting from the text
databases.
It's not easily possible to print reports from the text database
programs to Windows printers, but one can easily design reports that
include XyWrite formatting commands, import the report into XyWrite,
export it as RTF, and load it into a Windows word processor to produce formatted reports, though short reports can juse be copy/pasted.
XyWrite formatting commands work in the same way as HTML ones, though
the commands themselves are not the same.
Just to give an example of copy/pasting, here:
Best books read in 2023, sorted by rating:
87 Lewis, C.S. 1965 [1952] The voyage of the Dawn Treader.
85 Cooper, Susan. 2010 [1965] Over sea, under stone.
84 Carlisle, Clare. 2020. Philosopher of the Heart.
83 Tudor, C.J. 2017. The Chalk Man.
82 Hughes, Richard. 1964. The Fox in the Attic.
82 Robotham, Michael. 2009. Shatter.
82 Shaik, Moe. 2020. The ANC Spy Bible: Surviving across Enemy
Lines.
81 Barrows, Annie. 2015. Magic in the Mix.
81 Erlings, Fridrik. 2006. Benjamin Dove.
81 Greene, Graham. 1975 [1938] Brighton Rock.
78 King, Stephen. 2000. On writing: a memoir.
In message <[email protected]>, Keith Thompson <[email protected]> writes
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> writes:You could equally argue:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes
[]
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM >>>>for 1 day).[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM is one minute before 12:01 AM (midnight).
12:00 PM is one minute before 12:01 PM (noon).
12:00 AM is one minute after 11:59 AM (noon)
12:00 PM is one minute after 11:59 PM (midnight).
That ambiguity is why I find it confusing.
On 11/19/2023 11:57 AM, Java Jive wrote:for it on the parent directory/page.
On 19/11/2023 08:17, Paul wrote:
I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org
seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download >>> a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB),
the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the
response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to
respond.
I always hesitate to disagree with you, Paul, but IME today the above is NOT true. I set the download service on my QNAP NAS to download ...
https://archive.org/download/digital_river/x17-58996.iso
... and it downloaded successfully. In particular, I watched it roll over the 2GB downloaded mark with no perceptible glitch, the resulting file size is the advertised 2.39 GB, the ISO opens successfully in 7-zip, and its SHA1 agrees with that given
I think you must have a different problem somewhere?
I have a theory.
It's possible that archive.org , archived some of the downloads
when the Microsoft servers had the "download bug". There was a
period of time, where Microsoft servers were truncating downloads.
A symptom, is both parties to the download are satisfied the download
is complete. But the file can be short, by up to a gigabyte.
I've just started downloading a digitalriver sample, like yourself,
and when I get back, we'll see whether this one is "regular size".
The damage then, could actually be recorded on the server that way.
If you believe the left column is size-in-bytes here, then this
list is anomalous as well, and may be stored (incorrectly) on the
server like that. Maybe these weren't DigitalRiver, but were
TechBench or similar. The collection may be "digital_river", but
that does not mean Archive.org crawled digitalriver.com itself. Some
user uploaded these as far as I know.
https://ia801300.us.archive.org/30/items/digital_river/xxx17index_file.txt
So rather than a protocol error, the content on the server may
simply be damaged, and I've misinterpreted this as a protocol problem.
On 11/19/2023 12:55 AM, John Hall wrote:
In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson >><[email protected]d> writes
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John HallAM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e.
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65
<[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour >>>> clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
ambiguity.
I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and
12 PM to be
ambiguous. Interesting.
before and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before
nor after, so logically it should be 12 M. Midnight is both 12 hours >>before and 12 hours post, but I suppose it would be more logical to
call it 12 PM (or maybe 0 AM).
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?
On 19/11/2023 19:21, Paul wrote:given for it on the parent directory/page.
On 11/19/2023 11:57 AM, Java Jive wrote:
On 19/11/2023 08:17, Paul wrote:
I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org
seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download >>>> a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB),
the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the >>>> response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to
respond.
I always hesitate to disagree with you, Paul, but IME today the above is NOT true. I set the download service on my QNAP NAS to download ...
https://archive.org/download/digital_river/x17-58996.iso
... and it downloaded successfully. In particular, I watched it roll over the 2GB downloaded mark with no perceptible glitch, the resulting file size is the advertised 2.39 GB, the ISO opens successfully in 7-zip, and its SHA1 agrees with that
2,147,483,648, whereas the actual file size should be 2.38 GB = 2,564,476,928 (I misread it when I quoted 2.39 GB earlier)
I think you must have a different problem somewhere?
I have a theory.
It's possible that archive.org , archived some of the downloads
when the Microsoft servers had the "download bug". There was a
period of time, where Microsoft servers were truncating downloads.
A symptom, is both parties to the download are satisfied the download
is complete. But the file can be short, by up to a gigabyte.
I've just started downloading a digitalriver sample, like yourself,
and when I get back, we'll see whether this one is "regular size".
The damage then, could actually be recorded on the server that way.
If you believe the left column is size-in-bytes here, then this
list is anomalous as well, and may be stored (incorrectly) on the
server like that. Maybe these weren't DigitalRiver, but were
TechBench or similar. The collection may be "digital_river", but
that does not mean Archive.org crawled digitalriver.com itself. Some
user uploaded these as far as I know.
https://ia801300.us.archive.org/30/items/digital_river/xxx17index_file.txt
Yes, agreed so far ...
The number against the file I downloaded successfully - which, I forgot to mention, is the one the OP would need to create a 32-bit W7 VM from scratch: Windows 7 Home Premium x86 English SP1 - is 2,147,483,647, which is one byte less than 2 GB =
So rather than a protocol error, the content on the server may
simply be damaged, and I've misinterpreted this as a protocol problem.
No, I don't think so, because what is supposedly the size is wrong for the file I downloaded, yet I was able to download it in full, so either:
1) The index has the wrong sizes;
... and ...
2) SOME of the files, but fortunately not the one the OP would need, were uploaded incorrectly, and truncated thereby;
... and these two things happened more or less independently of each other, because my test earlier showed that there isn't a one-for-one correspondence between the supposed incorrect sizes in the index and whether the file downloads correctly, or ...
3) You have some other problem.
To move this forward, perhaps if you give here some of the exact links you tried to download, I and others could try downloading them to see if we get the same results?
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
The choice of whether 12am is midnight and 12pm is noon or vice versa
is fundamentally arbitrary. That choice has been made. There are
probably a number of official standards that address this (I'm too lazy
to look up any of them), and I believe they consistently say that 12am
is midnight and 12pm is noon.
I offer a rationale for that choice. All times from 12:00:00 to
12:59:59 are either all AM, or all PM. The transition from 11:NN:NN to >12:NN:NN happens at the same time as the transition from AM to PM or
vice versa. That makes more sense to me than having 12:00:00 AM
immediately followed by 12:00:01 PM.
If you still think it's ambiguous, treat my suggestion as a mnenomic.
The issue is settled, and the convention isn't going to change.
John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
<Snip>
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >south' at Noon!! ;-P
And of course if you went by "sun time", places on different
longitudes that are currently within the same time zone would be
setting their clocks to different times, as happened prior to the
middle of the 19th century.
And, going the other way, isn't all of Russia (and, possibly, all of PR
of China) all on one Time setting??
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?
Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
And of course if you went by "sun time", places on different
longitudes that are currently within the same time zone would be
setting their clocks to different times, as happened prior to the
middle of the 19th century.
On 19/11/2023 22:56, Paul wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
I've left them going on my NAS, will report back to-morrow.
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov 2023
20:40:52, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
<Snip>
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the
clock. Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on
the clock rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due
south.
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like
'due south' at Noon!! ;-P
And of course if you went by "sun time", places on different
longitudes that are currently within the same time zone would be
setting their clocks to different times, as happened prior to
the middle of the 19th century.
And, going the other way, isn't all of Russia (and, possibly, all
of PR of China) all on one Time setting??
I could see justification for the whole planet to use the same clock;
it'll never happen, though, as for any one suggestion, there will be
far more people/places/whatever who would have to change than not. To
a small extent, GMT (or UCT I think) _is_ that, and is used in
scientific circles.
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 20/11/23 9:07 pm:[]
I could see justification for the whole planet to use the same
clock;
it'll never happen, though, as for any one suggestion, there will be
far more people/places/whatever who would have to change than not. To
a small extent, GMT (or UCT I think) _is_ that, and is used in
scientific circles.
GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to Zulu for >Military Communications as well!!
On 19/11/2023 23:59, Java Jive wrote:
On 19/11/2023 22:56, Paul wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
I've left them going on my NAS, will report back to-morrow.
All failed, at least one I checked was indeed around the 2GB mark.
John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:<snip>
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
<Snip>
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >south' at Noon!! ;-P
In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson ><[email protected]d> writes
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>><[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
In message <sxN5N.46596$[email protected]> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023 >>>>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <[email protected]d> writes []
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023[] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
12:00 AM for 1 day).
Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is >>>>'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left >>>uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour >>>clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any >>>ambiguity.
I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and 12 PM to be
ambiguous. Interesting.
AM stands for "ante meridiem" and PM for "post meridiem", i.e. before
and after midday respectively. But 12 noon is neither before nor after,
so logically it should be 12 M. Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12
hours post, but I suppose it would be more logical to call it 12 PM (or
maybe 0 AM).
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 ><[email protected]> writes
John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:<snip>
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
<Snip>
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>south' at Noon!! ;-P
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
In message <ujfmq3$auhr$[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
00:26:27, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 20/11/23 9:07 pm:[]
I could see justification for the whole planet to use the same
clock; it'll never happen, though, as for any one suggestion,
there will be far more people/places/whatever who would have to
change than not. To a small extent, GMT (or UCT I think) _is_
that, and is used in scientific circles.
GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed to
Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
I think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset - and
zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
John Hall wrote on 20/11/23 8:38 am:<snip>
In message <ujdo3p$3u7fg$[email protected]>, Bob F
<[email protected]> writes
<Snip>
So how is that affected by daylight savings time?Not art all, since we are dealing with time as shown on the clock.
Even when daylight savings time isn't in force, noon on the clock
rarely precisely corresponds to when the sun is due south.
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due
south' at Noon!! ;-P
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 1:11 am:[]
In message <ujfmq3$auhr$[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
00:26:27, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed toI think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset - and
Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
Correct .... but, in a Military situation, where you could be
communicating across Time Zones, without actually knowing what the >originating and destination time zones are, Zulu (i.e. GMT) was often
the reference Time zone with both ends of the Comms link making the >appropriate adjustment to 'Local' Time!!
Here in Victoria, Australia (bottom end of the globe!!), we are
currently in Daylight Savings Time, so would be using 'Lima' time
references but our 'normal' Time Zone is 'Kilo'
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall <[email protected]> wrote:[]
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >><[email protected]> writes
Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would describe >the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due >south.
In message <ujhsp1$p740$[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
20:20:34, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 21/11/23 1:11 am:[]
In message <ujfmq3$auhr$[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov 2023
00:26:27, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
GMT used in Communications cycles as well ..... and renamed toI think that originated from GMT being "+0000", or zero offset -
Zulu for Military Communications as well!!
and zulu being the international phonetic alphabet for Z.
Correct .... but, in a Military situation, where you could be
communicating across Time Zones, without actually knowing what the
originating and destination time zones are, Zulu (i.e. GMT) was
often the reference Time zone with both ends of the Comms link
making the appropriate adjustment to 'Local' Time!!
Here in Victoria, Australia (bottom end of the globe!!), we are
currently in Daylight Savings Time, so would be using 'Lima' time
references but our 'normal' Time Zone is 'Kilo'
Interesting: I knew about Z for zero, but didn't know all the other
time zones had a letter too.
In message <[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov
2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall <[email protected]> wrote:[]
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>><[email protected]> writes
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23��N),Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due >>south.
and then on only two days a year.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:
In message <[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov
2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall[]
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>>><[email protected]> writes
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23��N), >>and then on only two days a year.Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would >>>describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due >>>south.
The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at >midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
In message <[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov
2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean >"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for
In message <[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov >>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall[]
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>>>><[email protected]> writes
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23��N), >>>and then on only two days a year.Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would >>>>describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say it was due
south.
The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at >>midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
anyone not between the two tropics.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 05:02:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:
In message <[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov
2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean >>"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for >>anyone not between the two tropics.
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov >>>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:[]
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>>>>><[email protected]> writes
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23��N), >>>>and then on only two days a year.Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would >>>>>describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say
it was due
south.
The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is >approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't >make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is >approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't >make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
In message <[email protected]> at Wed, 22 Nov 2023 02:38:39, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
[]
We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is >> approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn'tAh. Some people add a word - "directly overhead". I'd call your version "at its highest", not "overhead".
make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson ><[email protected]d> writes
On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 05:02:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:
In message <[email protected]> at Tue, 21 Nov >>>2023 20:59:33, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"I think you're using the word "overhead" differently to me. Do you mean >>>"above the horizon"? I mean "directly above me", which it never is for >>>anyone not between the two tropics.
<[email protected]> wrote:
In message <[email protected]> at Mon, 20 Nov >>>>>2023 23:00:29, Char Jackson <[email protected]d> writes
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:23:45 +0000, John Hall >>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:[]
In message <ujf9j4$8v0s$[email protected]>, Daniel65 >>>>>>><[email protected]> writes
It'll only be overhead if you're south of the tropic of cancer (~23��N), >>>>>and then on only two days a year.Bloody Hell!! I'd be in real trouble if the sun were anything like 'due >>>>>>>>south' at Noon!! ;-P<snip>
Presumably you're in the southern hemisphere?
I don't know about him but I'm in the northern hemisphere and I would >>>>>>describe
the sun as being overhead at midday, but I certainly wouldn't say >>>>>>it was due
south.
The nice thing about being well north of there is that the sun is overhead at
midday every day of the year. None of this due south business. ;-)
We're definitely using 'overhead' differently. For me, it's when the sun is >>approximately at its highest point in the sky for the day. Your usage doesn't >>make sense to me, and I assume you'd say the same about me/mine.
I'm with the other John on this.
Would you say that an aeroplane was
"overhead" if it was merely at its highest angular elevation above your >horizon?
Also, even by, your definition, if you are north of the Arctic
Circle then the sun won't be "overhead" at midday every day of the year,
as for part of the year it will never be visible.
When dealing with virtual machines, you want a good supply of RAM for
this. Modern machines make it pretty easy to get quantities of RAM.
For example, W11 Host specifies 4GB of RAM, a W11 Virtual machine, would
use 4GB of RAM. That is 8GB already, and I don't have a browser open yet.
The next multiple for RAM, is 16GB.
Also, if you go the virtual machine route, you have to be careful to
make backups of your virtual machine file. Microsoft does not provide
high quality support for activation issues with virtual machines. You
can ask the poster "T" (todd), regarding what happened to his
virtual machine that was activated. He could not get Microsoft to help
him, and restore his activation. Backing up the container,
is to provide a means to roll back and regain your activation.
Not all activation issues can be fixed that way, but some of them can.
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
need to run. Correct?
Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a
hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed.
Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
machines.
"8-bit ones" sounds a bit strange, because all (IBM-like) PCs have
always been 16-bit. But perhaps you mean byte-level interpretive code or
some such. Can you give some more details about these "8-bit ones"?
Anyway, about this software, has it been written for Windows 1.x, 2.x,
3.0, 3.1, etc. and was running on 32-bit Windows 7? If so, WineVDM
mentioned by Ralph Fox may be a solution. Like Ralph, I have no
experience with WineVDM, but looking at the documentation, it seems that
it might fit the bill.
Another question: Are these really windows programs, i.e. GUI programs
which actually use windows and run in windows (note: lower case 'w',
i.e. the technology, not the (Microsoft) prodoct) or are they programs
which may use graphics, but run in a Command Prompt window?
On 17/11/2023 13:02, Steve Hayes wrote:
I'm late into this discussion, but from a skim through just now, I don't >think the following has been asked:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
Have you any disk-image style back-up of your previous system that was
stolen - eg an image made by Ghost, Clonezilla, etc?
If you have, using that as the source to make a working Virtual Machine
(VM, and I'm using the term generically rather than implying any brand) >should be easier than trying to re-install your original system and all
its software from scratch, even supposing that you actually have every
single installation media involved and that they all still work.
Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more! I
can't remember details now, but a few months ago I was trying to create
a W98 boot USB stick for running imaging software, and for some obscure >reason now forgotten needed to perform a 'sys' command to do it, and
*none* of the many W98 boot floppies I had still worked! Eventually I
found just one floppy disk that still worked well enough to allow an old >floppy boot image to be written to it, so that I could boot from it and
run the 'sys' command.
Home-made CDs & DVDs tend to degrade over time too.
Some of your other questions seem to have been answered, but
particularly I can confirm that through the VM you can access USB and
network hardware, etc, and areas of the host hard disk outside of the
VM, though you may have to alter some settings from their defaults to do
so. However, I only ever used a VM to test my website on old browsers,
which is hardly going to test the sort of functionality that you need,
so I'll stop around here.
Note Paul's point though, that if you want to use the in-built Microsoft
VM functionality, you need to be running a Pro version of W10 or W11,
not a Home version.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:59:56 +0000, Java Jive <[email protected]d>
wrote:
On 17/11/2023 13:02, Steve Hayes wrote:
I'm late into this discussion, but from a skim through just now, I don't
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.
think the following has been asked:
Have you any disk-image style back-up of your previous system that was
stolen - eg an image made by Ghost, Clonezilla, etc?
If you have, using that as the source to make a working Virtual Machine
(VM, and I'm using the term generically rather than implying any brand)
should be easier than trying to re-install your original system and all
its software from scratch, even supposing that you actually have every
single installation media involved and that they all still work.
Yes, I do have a couple of Acronis backups. I'll try to keep them in
case I ever do have to try to install them on a vitrual machine.
Anyone else here tried to use 20-year old floppies recently? No, I
thought not, most won't even have access to a floppy drive any more! I
can't remember details now, but a few months ago I was trying to create
a W98 boot USB stick for running imaging software, and for some obscure
reason now forgotten needed to perform a 'sys' command to do it, and
*none* of the many W98 boot floppies I had still worked! Eventually I
found just one floppy disk that still worked well enough to allow an old
floppy boot image to be written to it, so that I could boot from it and
run the 'sys' command.
When I got a Win 98 machine back in 1999 I copied all the floppies and stiffies I could find to a CD-ROM, and I think I have a copy of that
in a directory on the hard drive of my XP machine!
Oh, and the 2nd-hand Win 10 32-bit machine I goes (see earlier
messages) *does* have a DVD drive, which my wife's Windows 11 machine
doesn't have, so that's a big plus. Om the other hand, it doesn't have
a card slot, so getting photos off my camera will be a bit of a
schlep.
On 12/29/2023 3:07 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:[]
Oh, and the 2nd-hand Win 10 32-bit machine I goes (see earlier
messages) *does* have a DVD drive, which my wife's Windows 11 machine
doesn't have, so that's a big plus. Om the other hand, it doesn't have
a card slot, so getting photos off my camera will be a bit of a
schlep.
You can get SD card readers, in the form of USB sticks with a "hole in
the side".
That's what I use for my camera. Mine will only read media up to 32GB in size.
https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-208-939-05.jpg
For a desktop computer, you can also get tray mount card readers, and those >have more holes in front, for more kinds of media. This one would fit,
where the
floppy drive used to go. The connector on the end, fits over a 2x5 USB2 header >on the motherboard (9 gold pins, one location blank for keying purposes).
https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-192-038-S01.jpg
On 19 Nov 2023 19:34:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all, >> >> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.
64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so >> >I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
need to run. Correct?
Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a
hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed.
Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
machines.
"8-bit ones" sounds a bit strange, because all (IBM-like) PCs have
always been 16-bit. But perhaps you mean byte-level interpretive code or >some such. Can you give some more details about these "8-bit ones"?
I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.
Anyway, I have now acquired a 2nd-hand Dell with a 30-bit Windows 10
OS, and my DOS programs appear to run on it, so I'm not going to need VirtualBox just yet.
But thanks to everyone who replied on the Windows question (the time discussion was less useful).
I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.
They often have a USB slot in them too, so you aren't "wasting" a USB
header.
In message <[email protected]> at Fri, 29 Dec
2023 15:27:29, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d> writes
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
On 19 Nov 2023 19:34:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <[email protected]d>
wrote:
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned >> >> >> that it may be irreplaceable.
It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means >> >> >> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't >> >> >> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over >> >> >> the last 30 years.
64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you >> >> >need to run. Correct?
Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least >> >> all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a >> >> hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed. >> >> Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
machines.
"8-bit ones" sounds a bit strange, because all (IBM-like) PCs have
always been 16-bit. But perhaps you mean byte-level interpretive code or >> >some such. Can you give some more details about these "8-bit ones"?
I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.
The usual confusion about the 'bit-ness'! :-)
The 8088 is actually a 16-bit processor, because it has 16-bit
registers, etc.. But the width of the *data* bus is 8-bit. The
instruction set is named 'x86-16'.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8088>
I'm pretty sure the original IBM PC used the 8086, which was a 16-bit processor (though in some incarnations took two goes to get 16-bit data
or instructions, over an 8-bit bus).
The 8086 came _after_ the 8088; not
sure what the 8088 was. The 6 in 8086 meant 16 bit, I'm pretty sure.
The 80186 was a rare beast - I don't think the core processor was much
if any more powerful (by whatever mention you like), but the chip had
some on-board bits that were normally implemented externally. The BBC
Micro "second processor" board used it, offering a weird sort of PC
(using Dr. DOS, IIRR); I don't know any other machine that used it.
Likewise, the 80286 is also a 16-bit processor, but with a 16-bit data
bus and also a 'x86-16' instruction set (with extensions).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80286>
The 80386 is a 32-bit processor, with a 16-bit or 32-bit databus and a
'x86-32' instruction set.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386>
As far as I know, none of the x86 processors were 8-bit processors.
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX" meant; on
one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a floating-point maths co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On the other, SX meant it had a half-width (so 16?) bus outside the chip (so requiring two fetches to
get a word), DX had more pins on the chip. Motherboards for the one that might or might not have the co-processor on chip often had a socket for
an external co-processor - I think that was the '387, so it's probably
the 3 series that was that. There were rumours as the time that 386SX
and 387 chips were actually 386DX chips that had failed at final test
but where the main processor or the co-processor part had passed; I've
no idea if there was any truth in that. (Certainly, a few years earlier,
the same sort of principle _had_ been used with SRAM chips - ones of a certain size were available in two versions, one with one of the enable
pins active high and one active low, which were actually SRAMs of twice
the size which had failed final test but either the upper or lower half worked.)
So consequently, also the IBM PC DOS and MS-DOS programs were 16-bit.
[No longer relevant stuff deleted.]
Anyway, I have now acquired a 2nd-hand Dell with a 30-bit Windows 10
OS, and my DOS programs appear to run on it, so I'm not going to need
VirtualBox just yet.
Great! Good outcome!
Indeed! (32 bit I presume!)
But thanks to everyone who replied on the Windows question (the time
discussion was less useful).
You're welcome.
[snip]
They often have a USB slot in them too, so you aren't "wasting" a USB header.
The headers usually provide 2 ports. The card reader just needs 1 so its not too hard to extend the other one to the outside of the case.
On 12/29/2023 1:26 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:[]
[snip]
They often have a USB slot in them too, so you aren't "wasting" a
USB header.
The headers usually provide 2 ports. The card reader just needs 1 so
its not too hard to extend the other one to the outside of the case.
You can sometimes purchase equipment that has a 1x5 connector.
But the odds are slim, of purchasing a second device that also has a 1x5
to sit next to it on a header.
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX" meant; on
one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a floating-point maths >co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On the other, SX meant it had a >half-width (so 16?) bus outside the chip (so requiring two fetches to
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX" meant; on
one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a floating-point maths >>co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On the other, SX meant it had a >>half-width (so 16?) bus outside the chip (so requiring two fetches to
The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric coprocessor
onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price point, so they
produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the DX except that the
numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines sold with this chip had an
empty socket where you could plug in a 486DX chip to get a coproc. So
once you did that, you could unplug the SX chip and use it elsewhere,
right? WRONG!!! It was set up so that the DX in those machines
wouldn't work unless the SX was plugged in, doing nothing.
Sometimes you get a 2×5 connector which you can _see_ is only wired
along one side; the provider chose to use that to ensure you plug it in
the right way round. You can then - if there is room adjacent to the
header on the board - plug it in offset by one, leaving the other port
still usable (though not by another offset plug if the header is wired
as per the header Paul has linked to, unless it happens to have used the other row).
In message <[email protected]> at Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:57, Tim Slattery <[email protected]> writes
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the disabled part, or make it work without the other?
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX" meant; on
one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a floating-point maths
co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On the other, SX meant it had a
half-width (so 16?) bus outside the chip (so requiring two fetches to
The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric coprocessor
onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price point, so they
produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the DX except that the
numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines sold with this chip had an
empty socket where you could plug in a 486DX chip to get a coproc. So
once you did that, you could unplug the SX chip and use it elsewhere,
right? WRONG!!! It was set up so that the DX in those machines
wouldn't work unless the SX was plugged in, doing nothing.
On 12/30/2023 3:27 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:[]
In message <[email protected]> at Sat, 30
Dec 2023 12:10:57, Tim Slattery <[email protected]> writes
The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric coprocessorDid anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the >>disabled part, or make it work without the other?
onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price point, so they
produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the DX except that the
numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines sold with this chip had an
empty socket where you could plug in a 486DX chip to get a coproc. So
once you did that, you could unplug the SX chip and use it elsewhere,
right? WRONG!!! It was set up so that the DX in those machines
wouldn't work unless the SX was plugged in, doing nothing.
You will remember that these were simpler times.
Intel has much better mechanisms "to enforce this or that" today.
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=68471
Today we have sharks with lasers on their heads. Back then,
all we had was sharks.
Paul
In message <[email protected]> at Sat, 30
Dec 2023 12:10:57, Tim Slattery <[email protected]> writes
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX"
meant; on one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a
floating-point maths co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On
the other, SX meant it had a half-width (so 16?) bus outside the
chip (so requiring two fetches to
The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric coprocessor
onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price point, so they
produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the DX except that
the numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines sold with this chip
had an empty socket where you could plug in a 486DX chip to get a
coproc. So once you did that, you could unplug the SX chip and use
it elsewhere, right? WRONG!!! It was set up so that the DX in those
machines wouldn't work unless the SX was plugged in, doing
nothing.
disabled part, or make it work without the other?
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 31/12/23 7:27 am:
In message <[email protected]> at Sat, 30
Dec 2023 12:10:57, Tim Slattery <[email protected]> writes
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX"The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric coprocessor >>>onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price point, so they
meant; on one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a
floating-point maths co-processor on board, DX meant it did. On
the other, SX meant it had a half-width (so 16?) bus outside the
chip (so requiring two fetches to
produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the DX except that
the numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines sold with this chip
had an empty socket where you could plug in a 486DX chip to get a
coproc. So once you did that, you could unplug the SX chip and use
it elsewhere, right? WRONG!!! It was set up so that the DX in those
machines wouldn't work unless the SX was plugged in, doing
nothing.
disabled part, or make it work without the other?
"487"?? All DuckDuckGo shows seems to concern a Californian Penal Code
clause 487!! ;-P
Maybe it was 486DX as Tim says. I had _thought_ the '387 was the co-processor for that series.numbers. (It wasn't just Intel - other manufacturers had to invent names too; I remember one chip called "roboclock"; I think it was Maxim or IDT.) Presumably that's why things moved to Pentium II, etc., rather than 686.
I'm not sure when they started to drop the "80" from (e. g.) 80386. I know they started using names around the time of the '586, alias Pentium, because someone in charge of the administration of trademarks said, basically, no more trademarking just
On 12/31/2023 7:37 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Maybe it was 486DX as Tim says. I had _thought_ the '387 was the >>co-processor for that series.
I'm not sure when they started to drop the "80" from (e. g.) 80386. I
know they started using names around the time of the '586, alias
Pentium, because someone in charge of the administration of trademarks >>said, basically, no more trademarking just numbers. (It wasn't just
Intel - other manufacturers had to invent names too; I remember one
chip called "roboclock"; I think it was Maxim or IDT.) Presumably
that's why things moved to Pentium II, etc., rather than 686.
It's possible for a company to continue using its old
numbering scheme, for labeling at chip level.
Here, the lucky 8 is still in usage, for a part of it. Southbridges.
These chips did not typically need heatsinks, so you could spot
a part number like this on your Pentium 4 motherboard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%2FO_Controller_Hub
82801ER (ICH5R) RAID[]
*******
Someone has saved the musty old books. Good on 'em.
I used to collect those, early on, but later it did not
align with what I was doing.
Once the industry became more adept at using PDF, the
fascination with catalogs disappeared. We actually had
several very large rooms, with all those databooks collected
in them. But that library was too far from me, to be
of any practical use.
I still have a databook from 1972 here. The sentimental
aspect was, as a kid, I wrote a letter to Fairchild, asking
them if I could have a databook. And they actually sent
me a databook! Surprised the hell out of me. I think it
cost them $4.00 in postage to send that. That was the 7400
series of TTL or so. I still have a few bins of the critters.
A number of the companies from that era, did not survive.
Texas Instruments is still around.
PaulJohn
Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the
disabled part, or make it work without the other?
"487"?? All DuckDuckGo shows seems to concern a Californian Penal Code
clause 487!! ;-P
I used to collect the TTL books - had quite a large collection of them,
and knowledge of the numbering too. I only got round to throwing them
out about a year ago - I kept the earliest, as I'd actually bought it
(most of the others I'd got from work, either "acquired" or rescued when being thrown out), and _one or two_ others (and wallcharts).
[snip]
Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable the
disabled part, or make it work without the other?
"487"?? All DuckDuckGo shows seems to concern a Californian Penal Code
clause 487!! ;-P
80487. The add-on FPU for the 80486sx, that was actually a 486dx.
In message <umrm4d$1nhbb$[email protected]> at Sun, 31 Dec 2023
23:17:19, Daniel65 <[email protected]> writes
J. P. Gilliver wrote on 31/12/23 7:27 am:
In message <[email protected]> at Sat,
30 Dec 2023 12:10:57, Tim Slattery <[email protected]>
writes
"J. P. Gilliver" <[email protected]> wrote:Did anyone ever manage to "crack" the 486SX or the 487 to enable
For 386 and 486, the confusingly changed what "SX" and "DX"The 486 was the first Intel chip to have the numeric
meant; on one (I forget which), SX meant it _didn't_ have a
floating-point maths co-processor on board, DX meant it did.
On the other, SX meant it had a half-width (so 16?) bus
outside the chip (so requiring two fetches to
coprocessor onboard. Intel wanted to prese4ve the "SX" price
point, so they produced a 486SX chip which was identical to the
DX except that the numeric coprocessor was disabled! Machines
sold with this chip had an empty socket where you could plug in
a 486DX chip to get a coproc. So once you did that, you could
unplug the SX chip and use it elsewhere, right? WRONG!!! It was
set up so that the DX in those machines wouldn't work unless
the SX was plugged in, doing nothing.
the disabled part, or make it work without the other?
"487"?? All DuckDuckGo shows seems to concern a Californian Penal
Code clause 487!! ;-P
Maybe it was 486DX as Tim says. I had _thought_ the '387 was the
co-processor for that series.
I'm not sure when they started to drop the "80" from (e. g.) 80386. I
know they started using names around the time of the '586, alias
Pentium, because someone in charge of the administration of
trademarks said, basically, no more trademarking just numbers. (It
wasn't just Intel - other manufacturers had to invent names too; I
remember one chip called "roboclock"; I think it was Maxim or IDT.) Presumably that's why things moved to Pentium II, etc., rather than
686.
On 12/31/23 13:15, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[snip]
I used to collect the TTL books - had quite a large collection of them,
and knowledge of the numbering too. I only got round to throwing them
out about a year ago - I kept the earliest, as I'd actually bought it
(most of the others I'd got from work, either "acquired" or rescued when being thrown out), and _one or two_ others (and wallcharts).
I have an Intel CPU data book that is older than the 80486. One CPU I
hadn't heard of before was the 80376. It's a version of the 80386
without real mode.
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
I think early programs running on IBM PC DOS or MS DOS were 8-bit,
running on 8088 processors. The 286 and 386 ones were 16-bit.
Not so. The original IBM-PCs were 16-bit machines. They used a kludge
to implement a 20-bit address space, allowing access to one megabyte
of RAM. You may remember that 340KB of that was reserved for the
operating system, leaving 640KB for user program.
1970's vintage machines, such as Cromemco, Zylog, etc, etc, were 8
bits. I'm a bit foggy on their addressing schemes, but at least some
of them could switch between banks of 64KB each.
The 80286 was basically 16-bits, but implemented "protected mode"
which allowed access to 16MB. Windows programers (if they're old
enough) may remember using "GlobalAlloc" and "GlobalFree" calls. Those manipulated the Global Allocation Table, a 80286 protected mode
hardware kludge that kept track of all that RAM.
The 80386 was Intel's first true 32-bit machine. Windows 3.0 386
version ran in 16-bit 80286 protected mode though. It took a while for Windows to catch up with 32-bit processors.
--
Tim Slattery
timslattery <at> utexas <dot> edu
You can get SD card readers, in the form of USB sticks with a "hole in the side".
That's what I use for my camera. Mine will only read media up to 32GB in size.
https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll1280/20-208-939-05.jpg
On 19/11/2023 23:59, Java Jive wrote:
On 19/11/2023 22:56, Paul wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20191216124401if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/HyperV/IE11/IE11.Win7.HyperV.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
https://web.archive.org/web/20190824211320if_/https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/VMBuild_20180102/VirtualBox/IE11/IE11.Win7.VirtualBox.zip
I've left them going on my NAS, will report back to-morrow.
All failed, at least one I checked was indeed around the 2GB mark.
On a whim yesterday, I decided to search for the filename parts of the[snip]
above URLs, and succeeded in finding copies to download.
All this suggests that there is a good chance that other downloads
previously thought to be broken may in fact be obtainable by suitable searching.
Java Jive wrote:
On a whim yesterday, I decided to search for the filename parts of the[snip]
above URLs, and succeeded in finding copies to download.
All this suggests that there is a good chance that other downloads
previously thought to be broken may in fact be obtainable by suitable
searching.
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
On 6/7/2024 10:50 AM, Auric__ wrote:
Java Jive wrote:
On a whim yesterday, I decided to search for the filename parts of the[snip]
above URLs, and succeeded in finding copies to download.
All this suggests that there is a good chance that other downloads
previously thought to be broken may in fact be obtainable by suitable
searching.
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
I tested one and it seemed to work (it was going to download but I closed it).
I don't remember the details, but some of the backups of large files
from Microsoft were damaged. If you get a large file that was supposed
to be 4.7GB say, and you grab the archive.org one and it is only 3GB,
that is not a fault of archive.org . On the day archive.org downloaded
the file, only 3GB of it was on the Microsoft server.
If you check dates in archive.org later on (after Microsoft fixed the server),
then you get the proper 4.7GB one.
Java Jive wrote:
[snip]On 6/7/2024 10:50 AM, Auric__ wrote:
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
Yes the original links are all dead now, so what you have to do is copy
each link from the list into the clipboard, and then paste it into the
WayBack Machine to see if they've archived it, which it seems almost
certain they will have, then note the date of the archive, and be sure
that when you repeat for the next part of the download, you use the same
date's archive for the remaining parts (although the date will be the
same, the time will be a little later, denoting the WayBack Machine
going serially through a site to archive it), as per the example I gave
for ie11-win7.
I already have about half of those VMs in storage, and the rest don't really matter to me one way or another. IIRC, they're time-limited, and if so are
of minimal use to me. I should probably delete them; the ones I need I have complete installs on other VMs anyway.
[snip]On 6/7/2024 10:50 AM, Auric__ wrote:
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
Yes the original links are all dead now, so what you have to do is copy
each link from the list into the clipboard, and then paste it into the WayBack Machine to see if they've archived it, which it seems almost
certain they will have, then note the date of the archive, and be sure
that when you repeat for the next part of the download, you use the same date's archive for the remaining parts (although the date will be the
same, the time will be a little later, denoting the WayBack Machine
going serially through a site to archive it), as per the example I gave
for ie11-win7.
Java Jive wrote:
[snip]On 6/7/2024 10:50 AM, Auric__ wrote:
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
Yes the original links are all dead now, so what you have to do is copy
each link from the list into the clipboard, and then paste it into the
WayBack Machine to see if they've archived it, which it seems almost
certain they will have, then note the date of the archive, and be sure
that when you repeat for the next part of the download, you use the same
date's archive for the remaining parts (although the date will be the
same, the time will be a little later, denoting the WayBack Machine
going serially through a site to archive it), as per the example I gave
for ie11-win7.
I already have about half of those VMs in storage, and the rest don't really matter to me one way or another. IIRC, they're time-limited, and if so are
of minimal use to me. I should probably delete them; the ones I need I have complete installs on other VMs anyway.
On 6/8/2024 12:34 PM, Auric__ wrote:
Java Jive wrote:
[snip]On 6/7/2024 10:50 AM, Auric__ wrote:
All of the "msecnd.net" links are 404 for me.
Yes the original links are all dead now, so what you have to do is
copy each link from the list into the clipboard, and then paste it
into the WayBack Machine to see if they've archived it, which it seems
almost certain they will have, then note the date of the archive, and
be sure that when you repeat for the next part of the download, you
use the same date's archive for the remaining parts (although the date
will be the same, the time will be a little later, denoting the
WayBack Machine going serially through a site to archive it), as per
the example I gave for ie11-win7.
I already have about half of those VMs in storage, and the rest don't
really matter to me one way or another. IIRC, they're time-limited, and
if so are of minimal use to me. I should probably delete them; the ones
I need I have complete installs on other VMs anyway.
I have received good service from the ie11-win7 one.
After the grace period expires, you can boot the VM and it will
run for 30 minutes, before shutting down without warning (dirty
shutdown). You'll notice background color changes, a few minutes before
it abruptly dies. It will operate this way, forever. (It is not
activated.)
This allows running in a 32-bit environment, and using some old
16-bit program you might have.
You can boot the VM for 30 minutes, as many times in one day as you[snip]
would want. Try not to upset the jiggler inside the OS, with regard
to hardware resources, as if you do that, it could stop booting.
It may not like, for example, updating of the VirtualBox Guest Additions
all that much. You should attempt to make any changes you want, during
the grace period. Making changes when it is in "30 minute mode",
could have consequences.
Thirty minutes is not enough time for the final section
of WSUSOffline, and I'm not even sure that is a good idea
anyway, because the activation logic might not like it. I don't
think mine is patched up all that far. I have definitely patched
up other VMs, but... they were within the 30 day grace period.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 715 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 144:30:35 |
| Calls: | 12,089 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 15,000 |
| Messages: | 6,517,490 |
