• What sense is a tunnel? (was: '-Unpublished-' with speed > 300)

    From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dan Clough on Fri Nov 7 15:17:56 2025
    *** Answering a msg posted in area NODELIST-POLICE (NODELIST-POLICE).

    Hello Dan,

    On Thursday November 06 2025 22:07, you wrote to me:

    I would like to throw this out there, though - what sense does it make
    to use a 6-to-4 tunnel for this? If v4 goes under, doesn't the
    tunnel also no longer work? What's the point of that? When v4 dies,
    my ISP would (hopefully!) offer v6 and I'd be in the club. My
    thoughts are that if it isn't available to me natively, what *actual*
    use would a tunnel kludge provide to me?

    A valid point. For a tunnel to function you do indeed need a working IPv4 connection. So what is the use of the tunnel anyway?

    1) You still have fully flegded IPv4 from your provider but not everywone else in the world is that lucky. The number of people that have to make do with a so called CGNAT IPv4 address is rising. CGNAT is a technology used by providers to have many customers share a single public IPV4 address. It is similar to NAT on your own LAN where a single IPv4 adress is used by many devices on your LAN. With the difference that there is no port forwarding available for the customer. Those who's provider uses this technology to deal with the shortage of iPv4 adresses can only run servers that are accessable via IPv6. To connect to those servers you need IPv6 and if your provider does not support native IPv6, you can make use of a tunnel. This has not yet have a great effect on Fidonet, but the number of sysops confronted with CGANAT is rising.

    2) You can use a tunnel to experiment with IPv6 and prepare for the day in the near or not so near future that installing IPv6 will be unavoidable.

    3) To put pressure on your ISP. If the provider sees that his costomers are using tunnels to connect via IPv6 with the rest of the world they may wake up. In any case it is a counter argument to what providers dragging their feet often use: there is no demand for IPv6 from our customeres.

    4) And last but not least; what happened to that pioneer spirit that made Fidonet sysops try out and help further develop new technologies?

    Hope this helps.


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Nov 7 21:15:52 2025
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I would like to throw this out there, though - what sense does it make
    to use a 6-to-4 tunnel for this? If v4 goes under, doesn't the
    tunnel also no longer work? What's the point of that? When v4 dies,
    my ISP would (hopefully!) offer v6 and I'd be in the club. My
    thoughts are that if it isn't available to me natively, what *actual*
    use would a tunnel kludge provide to me?

    A valid point. For a tunnel to function you do indeed need a working
    IPv4 connection. So what is the use of the tunnel anyway?

    1) You still have fully flegded IPv4 from your provider but not
    everywone else in the world is that lucky. The number of people that
    have to make do with a so called CGNAT IPv4 address is rising. CGNAT is
    a technology used by providers to have many customers share a single public IPV4 address. It is similar to NAT on your own LAN where a
    single IPv4 adress is used by many devices on your LAN. With the difference that there is no port forwarding available for the customer. Those who's provider uses this technology to deal with the shortage of iPv4 adresses can only run servers that are accessable via IPv6. To connect to those servers you need IPv6 and if your provider does not support native IPv6, you can make use of a tunnel. This has not yet
    have a great effect on Fidonet, but the number of sysops confronted
    with CGANAT is rising.

    Okay, so I can see that (running a server in an area only served by
    CGNAT) as being a valid reason to want/need IPv6. I guess I didn't know
    that kind of thing was already happening. Certainly haven't seen or
    heard of it being a thing where I am.

    2) You can use a tunnel to experiment with IPv6 and prepare for the day in the near or not so near future that installing IPv6 will be unavoidable.

    A little less valid than the CGNAT scenario, but maybe... OK.

    3) To put pressure on your ISP. If the provider sees that his costomers are using tunnels to connect via IPv6 with the rest of the world they
    may wake up. In any case it is a counter argument to what providers dragging their feet often use: there is no demand for IPv6 from our customeres.

    From a technical perspective, *can* the ISP "see" that I was using a
    tunnel? I would think they could not, and I'm fairly confident they
    wouldn't care or "wake up". One reason they haven't provided it would
    be because it would cost them money to do so, and.... they don't want to
    do that because it hurts profit margins.

    4) And last but not least; what happened to that pioneer spirit that
    made Fidonet sysops try out and help further develop new technologies?

    I'm really not sure that exists much any more. I do understand what you
    mean, and experienced it myself back in FidoNet in the 1990's. Nowadays though, we are saturated with new technology every day, and it isn't
    nearly as exciting as it used to be, because we've gotten used to rapid advances in tech and capabilities. It's become just routine now.

    Hope this helps.

    It actually did. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.



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  • From Nick Boel@1:154/10 to Dan Clough on Sat Nov 8 08:01:58 2025
    Hey Dan!

    On Fri, 07 Nov 2025 21:15:52 -0600, you wrote:

    From a technical perspective, *can* the ISP "see" that I was using a tunnel? I would think they could not, and I'm fairly confident they wouldn't care or "wake up". One reason they haven't provided it
    would be because it would cost them money to do so, and.... they
    don't want to do that because it hurts profit margins.

    May I ask who is your ISP? I had thought I remember you mentioning Cox cable some time ago, but I could definitely be wrong there.

    If it is, you may actually have IPv6, just not enabled (because they probably won't do it for you, and want you to pay full price while not using /all/ of their features).

    Also, if your ISP provided modem/router are older, you could request their latest equipment and they'll usually come update it for no charge (again, because they won't just send you their latest stuff when it comes out, so you pay their current prices while using their old/cheaper equipment, lol):

    https://www.cox.com/residential/support/ip-version-6.html

    Get your money's worth! :)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... Sarcasm: because beating people up is illegal.
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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Nick Boel on Sat Nov 8 09:07:23 2025
    Re: What sense is a tunnel? (was: '-Unpublished-' with speed > 300)
    By: Nick Boel to Dan Clough on Sat Nov 08 2025 08:01 am

    From a technical perspective, *can* the ISP "see" that I was using a tunnel? I would think they could not, and I'm fairly confident they wouldn't care or "wake up". One reason they haven't provided it
    would be because it would cost them money to do so, and.... they
    don't want to do that because it hurts profit margins.

    May I ask who is your ISP? I had thought I remember you mentioning Cox cable some time ago, but I could definitely be wrong there.

    Yes, it is indeed Cox Cable.

    If it is, you may actually have IPv6, just not enabled (because they probably won't do it for you, and want you to pay full price while not using /all/ of their features).

    Also, if your ISP provided modem/router are older, you could request their latest equipment and they'll usually come update it for no charge (again, because they won't just send you their latest stuff when it comes out, so you pay their current prices while using their old/cheaper equipment, lol):

    I'm not using a Cox-provided modem or router. I have an ARRIS Surfboard SB6190 modem that I own, and a small PC running IPFire software for my router.

    https://www.cox.com/residential/support/ip-version-6.html

    Get your money's worth! :)

    Yes, that page would seem to indicate that they *DO* offer IPv6. I don't see any options/choices for that in the IPFire software (router)... and checking their documentation it doesn't seem to be mentioned. Hmmm... Now I'm actually interested in figuring this out.

    Anybody know offhand if IPFire supports IPv6, and how to enable it? I've been using that for years, and am happy with it, and have a lot of filter rules and so on defined, so somewhat reluctant to switch to something else.

    Having said that, any recommendations for alternatives? I know 'PFsense' is supposed to be good. I also know about things like OpenWRT, but I believe that runs on an actual commercial router appliance, which might be an option but I'd prefer to run on a small PC. Thoughts and opinions welcome... :-)

    Thanks!
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  • From Nick Boel@1:154/10 to Dan Clough on Sat Nov 8 14:31:02 2025
    Hey Dan!

    On Sat, 08 Nov 2025 09:07:22 -0600, you wrote:

    https://www.cox.com/residential/support/ip-version-6.html

    Get your money's worth! :)

    Yes, that page would seem to indicate that they *DO* offer IPv6. I
    don't see any options/choices for that in the IPFire software
    (router)... and checking their documentation it doesn't seem to be mentioned. Hmmm... Now I'm actually interested in figuring this out.

    Do it!

    Anybody know offhand if IPFire supports IPv6, and how to enable it?
    I've been using that for years, and am happy with it, and have a lot of filter rules and so on defined, so somewhat reluctant to switch to
    something else.

    Since you say you've been using it for years, have you been updating it over that time?

    Having said that, any recommendations for alternatives? I know
    'PFsense' is supposed to be good. I also know about things like
    OpenWRT, but I believe that runs on an actual commercial router
    appliance, which might be an option but I'd prefer to run on a small PC. Thoughts and opinions welcome... :-)

    I imagine they would support it, and if they don't (being an open source project) I would be extremely surprised. They seem to have been posting blogs about they themselves using it since 2013 or even earlier:

    https://www.ipfire.org/blog/infrastructure-2-ipv6-pushing-the-button

    Regards,
    Nick

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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Nick Boel on Sun Nov 9 20:48:06 2025
    Nick Boel wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Odd that they boast that they're using it for all of their services,
    but don't include it in their product. It seems IPFire 3 "is a major rewrite of IPFire 2" and "is at a very early stage of development and there is no definite release date, yet." Which also includes
    "Full-Stack IPv6 Support". That's a bummer, and kinda wayu behind the times seeing as though most other routers (including store bought)
    already fully support it.

    I'm gonna learn some more about all this, and am currently pretty
    loaded up with real life/work stuff, so it may wait until after the holidays. Thanks for your input/help!

    No worries, at least the interest in looking into it is (kinda) there, now!

    Yes, it is.

    First step would be to see if it is even there from the ISP, with the possibility of IPFire blocking it from reaching the rest of your
    network.

    Yep, that's next. I'm pretty confident it is not available in IPFire.
    There may be a good chance that I switch to OpenWRT...

    Thanks again, and I'll re-visit all this eventually. :-)



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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Nov 9 20:48:06 2025
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I want to run whatever firewall I'm going to use on a mini-PC as I currently am. The reason for that is that the cable modem, router,
    and main switch are located in a corner room of my house (the
    "man-cave"). I do not need WiFi in this room as it has plenty of
    wired outlets. I have two Access Points in other parts of the house (attached to the router via POE ethernet cables). So I don't want to buy/use an expensive "Wifi Router" (the kind with 6-8 antennae on it), just to disable the wifi functions because I don't need/want them in
    the "computer room". Not sure if all that makes sense, but the bottom line is that I want to continue using the mini-PC with a dedicated
    "router distro" on it. Will be checking to see if OpenWRT runs on a
    PC or needs a commercial "router appliance".

    Maybe you should reconsider. Low cost routers with just the basics are available these days. For the connection to my fiber glass provider I
    use a small low cost router from Mikrotik. No Wifi, no nonsense. Cheap and simple, but powerfull nonetheless. And of course full IPv6 support. IIRC I paid EUR 60 for it. It does not take much energy either. 10
    Watts or zo. And no noise. IMNSHO much preferable over a small PC
    serving as a router.

    That's a possibility, for sure. I have heard good things about
    Mikrotik.

    We'll see how this all plays out... :-)

    We stay tuned...

    I know you will. ;-)




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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Nov 10 08:43:59 2025
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Maybe you should reconsider. Low cost routers with just the
    basics are available these days. For the connection to my fiber
    glass provider I use a small low cost router from Mikrotik. No
    Wifi, no nonsense. Cheap and simple, but powerfull nonetheless.
    And of course full IPv6 support. IIRC I paid EUR 60 for it. It
    does not take much energy either. 10 Watts or zo. And no noise.
    IMNSHO much preferable over a small PC serving as a router.

    That's a possibility, for sure. I have heard good things about
    Mikrotik.

    They have good stuff for a good price. Drawback is the steep learning curve of RouterOS. Especially for those not familiar with Linux.

    That shouldn't be an issue for me. It could also get changed over to
    OpenWRT.

    I've been studying the various models they offer, and I think the
    "Hex S" may be the one. Likely going to get it, soon, thanks for the
    pointer.



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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Mon Nov 10 13:02:18 2025
    Hello Bj�rn,

    On Sunday November 09 2025 23:05, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> I use a small low cost router from Mikrotik. No Wifi, no
    MvdV>> nonsense. Cheap and simple, but powerfull nonetheless. And of
    MvdV>> course full IPv6 support. IIRC I paid EUR 60 for it.

    I bought my TP-Link AC1200 Gigabit WiFi Router two years ago from Amazon f�r EUR40. Full IPv6 support, as every new router has.

    IIRC it was in 2008 that I decided not to buy any more new network equipment that does not support IPv6. Back than IPv6 support was already available in many products but it certainly could not be taken for granted. Today the situation is much better, but one can still be surprised. That Mikrotik router router I mentioned, a Mikrotik HEX, that I bought earlied this year did not have IPv6 enabled as it was delivered. I had the choice of loading a "module" or upgrade to the latest version of RouterOS. I choose the latter...


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Dan Clough on Mon Nov 10 13:29:22 2025
    Hello Dan,

    On Sunday November 09 2025 20:48, you wrote to me:

    Maybe you should reconsider. Low cost routers with just the
    basics are available these days. For the connection to my fiber
    glass provider I use a small low cost router from Mikrotik. No
    Wifi, no nonsense. Cheap and simple, but powerfull nonetheless.
    And of course full IPv6 support. IIRC I paid EUR 60 for it. It
    does not take much energy either. 10 Watts or zo. And no noise.
    IMNSHO much preferable over a small PC serving as a router.

    That's a possibility, for sure. I have heard good things about
    Mikrotik.

    They have good stuff for a good price. Drawback is the steep learning curve of RouterOS. Especially for those not familiar with Linux.


    Cheers, Michiel

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  • From Nick Boel@1:154/700 to Dan Clough on Mon Nov 10 17:19:22 2025
    Hey Dan!

    On Sun, Nov 09 2025 20:48:06 -0600, you wrote:

    Yep, that's next. I'm pretty confident it is not available in IPFire.
    There may be a good chance that I switch to OpenWRT...

    I would have to agree there, too. I tried to dig up any info I could on IPFire's website, and couldn't find anything besides that they're working on (or have been for awhile) a new version that would include IPv6 support. However, if it's taken this long.. who knows when it'll be released to the public.

    Thanks again, and I'll re-visit all this eventually. :-)

    When you do re-visit, keep in mind what AI just told me (I also confirmed it at openwrt.org, because !@#$ AI):

    "Yes, OpenWrt can run on a PC, and it is designed for this purpose, especially for the x86 architecture. You can install it on a hard drive or run it from a USB drive or virtual machine, making it possible to turn a PC into a powerful router or firewall."

    Who knows, you may actually have fun with all this. ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Nick Boel on Mon Nov 10 21:12:29 2025
    Nick Boel wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Yep, that's next. I'm pretty confident it is not available in IPFire.
    There may be a good chance that I switch to OpenWRT...

    I would have to agree there, too. I tried to dig up any info I could on IPFire's website, and couldn't find anything besides that they're
    working on (or have been for awhile) a new version that would include
    IPv6 support. However, if it's taken this long.. who knows when it'll
    be released to the public.

    Thanks again, and I'll re-visit all this eventually. :-)

    When you do re-visit, keep in mind what AI just told me (I also
    confirmed it at openwrt.org, because !@#$ AI):

    "Yes, OpenWrt can run on a PC, and it is designed for this purpose, especially for the x86 architecture. You can install it on a hard drive
    or run it from a USB drive or virtual machine, making it possible to
    turn a PC into a powerful router or firewall."

    Very cool, that will be worth checking out, thanks.

    Who knows, you may actually have fun with all this. ;)

    Oh, I intend to! :-)


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  • From Nick Boel@1:154/700 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Nov 11 17:09:35 2025
    Hey Michiel!

    On Tue, Nov 11 2025 03:09:44 -0600, you wrote:

    "If it doesn't have IPv6 by now, it will probably die with IPv4."


    You may quote me on that. ;-)

    I imagine that saying could be used for much more than just IPv6! ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

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  • From deon@3:633/509 to Dan Clough on Wed Nov 12 16:58:59 2025
    Re: Re: What sense is a tunnel? (was: '-Unpublished-' with speed > 300)
    By: Dan Clough to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Nov 10 2025 08:43 am

    Howdy,

    That's a possibility, for sure. I have heard good things about Mikrotik.

    I've been studying the various models they offer, and I think the
    "Hex S" may be the one. Likely going to get it, soon, thanks for the pointer.

    I'm a fan of the Mikrotik stuff, to the point that anybody who asks for a router or a reliable device I recommend them.

    I've used the Hex S - infact still have it here and its now in its box - I needed something with more ports and wifi so went with an RB4011.

    My sister lives ruraly with a portable work office, her husband's man cave, and her step fathers granny flat. They were using many other, even named brand, wifi/ethernet devices and having constant problems with internet failing - even when they installed ethernet cabling. (Probably a 100m all up.)

    So I installed a few hap ax2 - at various drops on the ethernet run, and it hasnt missed a beat since I installed it 2 years ago. Single wifi for their devices as they roam around the proeprty and ethernet for the backbone. I manage it all remotely.


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  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to deon on Wed Nov 12 08:00:07 2025
    deon wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    That's a possibility, for sure. I have heard good things about Mikrotik.

    I've been studying the various models they offer, and I think the
    "Hex S" may be the one. Likely going to get it, soon, thanks for the pointer.

    I'm a fan of the Mikrotik stuff, to the point that anybody who asks for
    a router or a reliable device I recommend them.

    I've used the Hex S - infact still have it here and its now in its box
    - I needed something with more ports and wifi so went with an RB4011.

    Cool. Mine arrives tomorrow and looking forward to trying it.

    My sister lives ruraly with a portable work office, her husband's man cave, and her step fathers granny flat. They were using many other,
    even named brand, wifi/ethernet devices and having constant problems
    with internet failing - even when they installed ethernet cabling. (Probably a 100m all up.)

    So I installed a few hap ax2 - at various drops on the ethernet run,
    and it hasnt missed a beat since I installed it 2 years ago. Single
    wifi for their devices as they roam around the proeprty and ethernet
    for the backbone. I manage it all remotely.

    Wow, that is awesome. I looked at that hAP ax2 and it appears to be a
    great AP. I may need a couple of those too... :-)

    Thanks for the input, it's appreciated!



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